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Author Topic: USB noise  (Read 2083 times)
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manisandher
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2017, 02:22:43 pm »

Thus wnen [sic] errors are about, generally this is about noise.

[Highlight mine]

OK, so when USB errors occur, they are generally about noise. No problem.

But USB noise is still there even when there are no USB errors, right? And this noise can still affect the sound of the DAC, no? I mean, it is possible to change SFS from 1 to 120 and get zero USB errors in both cases, and yet still hear a change in sound from the DAC's analogue output between the two SFS settings, correct? Or are you saying that this change in sound must be accompanied by different USB error rates, as this is the only mechanism that can be at play here?

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.07 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=0 /  xQ1=1 / Q3,4,5=0 / SFS=1.00 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 1ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Arc Prediction / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
manisandher
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2017, 02:25:07 pm »

So my other responses left aside, it should imply that whatever it is we incur with stuff like the SFS and probably much more, is going the analogue backdoor route (I wanted to say this  right away, but waited for your explanation and implied USB impeded noise instead - which of course is your topic).

Aha...

Just reading your next post now...

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.07 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=0 /  xQ1=1 / Q3,4,5=0 / SFS=1.00 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 1ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Arc Prediction / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
PeterSt
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2017, 02:41:17 pm »

If we combine my last two posts a little, and now know that I also measure a.o. electro magnetic field (which is the least one under our control), then it surprised me a little how much even a loose (!!) connection emits electro magnetic (EM) field.
It actually does not even matter whether the cable is connected or not, it just radiates once it is connected at one end. This counts for your power cord, for the USB cable and for the Interlink (and maybe more, but I just want to say "for everything and all").

What I do not know is to what degree devices suffer from this. But anyway what seems to be important is that all you isolate may not isolate really at all because something wants to go through air anyway (a not connected cable is fully isolated of course).
But this also means that when we "isolate" something, we must do it at both ends. Or "around" the device we want to isolate. Now think why there is this Sw#3 *and* the PE switch at the Stealth PC. Hey, not that I could reason it out, but I sure made them at both ends because that is what it comes down to.

Now we need to have both switches engaged. Why ? well, this has to be about something going over PE (which is indeed just the same as the neutral, which is ... just your power supply signal), and this is this analogue backdoor.
My device in between those two switches (which is now the NOS1a/G3 up to its analogue outputs I'd say), is still isolated. And the more I do that, the more the influence - now just originating from the PC of its own - must go via the mains.

Theoretically this implies a "draw" on the outputs of the DAC, which impy a "reversed" impedance to the D/A section. Thus, something is hammering on that impedance from the outside now, and any impedance change might be able to change the D/A process itself. You could even call it jitter, because it may cause the D/A "gate" to open a bit sooner or later. Say that current leaks through in reversed direction. Now THAT kind of jitter would be new !

And so I think that I just found something important. The missing link. Something which shouldn't influence so largely because it should disappear in the massiveness of high voltage (like 200uV of distortion should not be able to influence devices which run at 115V/230V). But it should imply jitter via that same backdoor.

OK, if I see radiation of 0.5V/m spouting out of everything, why shouldn't that influence fragile voltage stuff like a D/A conversion ?
And I suppose some other way around : why wouldn't that radation be less when the capacity (so to speak) is fully utilized ? This is just wild guessing. But I have something like : if radation (EM) emerges because of something not being able to go anywhere (a loose-end cable), then there should be no radiation when all is 100% connected. But not only connected - also fully consumed (no losses).
This is a bit of the opposite of isolation, but alas.
Hips - oops

Peter
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - December 23 2016 (2.07)
*XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores)* @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/1/0/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 120  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> *Clairixa USB 1m80* -> *Phisolator* 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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acg
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2017, 10:58:55 pm »

When I did the PCIe ground isolation with the Silverstone Card, and because I was able to do it sequentially (i.e. a little bit at a time) what I noticed was that as the PCIe ground become "more" isolated that external RFI/EMI influenced the USB error rates more and more up to the point that turning on or off a flourescent light anywhere in the house would cause the USB connection to be totally severed and a restart required to get it back again.

What I "think" was happening is that the induced voltage in the PC from the EMI/RFI was enough to float the voltage difference across the PCIe connection enough so that connection was no longer possible...i.e. the potential across the signal wires became too much and because there was no mecchanism to keep them the same relative to each other that a longer current loop through the main power lines had to be forced which was not able to work in this situation.

I think it is the same sort of thing that happens when we isolate the PC via the Intona/Phisolator and ethernet cable...the boxes manage to "float" relative to each other and the connection becomes unviable.  Peter, one idea that I have had about going forward with this (assuming the actual problem/s is/are correctly identified) is to get the connection working properly with a completely disconnected PC.  If you can get things working well when there is no back-door (the PE-neutral route) by battery powering the PC (temporarily, not permanently) then by my thinking it should work once the backdoor is put back in the system and the PC is plugged into the mains.  Will a completely isolated PC even be able to reliably send USB data to a dac?  That is my question!
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Audio PC
Asrock X79 Extreme 4-M/ Xeon E5 2648L 8 Core 1.8GHz 70w TDP running at 1.2GHz with Hyperthreading On [16 cores]/ 16GB Ram / RAM-OS / *All* music files are WAV / Isolated Silverstone USB Card fed by LPS

XXHighEnd 2.05 RAM-OS (W10586 RAM)
Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Buffer 4096 / Q1/3/4/5 = 14/1/1/1 / xQ1 = 1 / Processor Core Appointment Scheme = Core 1-3 / PlayerPrio = Low / ThreadPrio = RealTime / ClockRes = 1ms / Not Switch during playback = off / Xtweaks Balanced Load = 64 / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when idle = 1 / Provide stable power = 1 / Utilize cores always = 1 / Time Stability = Not Stable / Time Performance Index = Not the best / SFS 0.12MB Max 20MB / Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect = on / Start Playback during conversion = off / Do not start playback at all = off / Copy to XX-drive by standard = on / Always clear Proxy before Playback = on / Stop Remaining Desktop Services = on / Stop Remaining Services = on / Stop WASAPI Services = on / Stop W10 Services = off / Keep LAN Services = on / Persist = on / Use Remote Desktop = on/ Custom Upsampling / Minimize OS = on / Peak Extend = off / Unattended

Audio Chain
Silverstone USB3 (isolated) >> Clairixa USB (short) >> Intona >> Clairixa USB >> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4 (4ms) -> 6 way active horn speakers (Single Ended Triodes)
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