NOS1a and HQPlayer on Win 10

[RiCo]

Is anyone able to run HQPlayer 3.15 with Phasure USB driver 1.0.4 on Windows 10 build 14393 ?

[manisandher]

Hi [name], I've been using HQP with the NOS1a on and off for a number of years. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The last time it was working perfectly for me was back in October. I was using the closed loop filter and NS5 in HQP and upsampling to 705.6 before feeding to the NOS1a.

Whenever it hasn't worked correctly, I've never really pursued things with Peter or Jussi because XXHE still sounds substantially better than HQP... to my ears. But I'm very keen to get this all sorted now because I'd like to use the NOS1a with Roon in my office, and the only way I'm going to achieve this is to use Roon->HQP.

It'll be a while before I can get my new office audio PC built, and I won't be able to try things until then. Meanwhile, have you tried contacting Jussi to see if he can help?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

I've been using HQP with the NOS1a on and off for a number of years. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Hi Mani,

I think that sometimes you know, and sometimes you forget. But it reaily is HQP doing it to you. I just spent 45 minutes to get it working (again) in Windows 7, just because I forgot the sequence of things. After that I could let it consistently play.

I then did the same on W10 (but with a new install) and after 30 minutes again, ... I think I have better things to do.
I am quite confident that it just works, it is only that you don't know how because it is too strange to get it going. Notice that this relates to that you click and playback seems to start while it does not at all. Also there is something that it can know the samping rate (the amount of upsampling) only when first a file has been loaded, but for that file it is too late, although now you can set the sampling rate. The file must now be re-loaded or otherwise it (the old one) will never ever play (but of course it looks like it is). Also see the relation with the playlist beaing cleared when you change the sampling rate in settings, while next the chosen sampling rate in the playlist remains as it is and is higher as what you just said/set what could work. Next up is loading a track/folder into the playlist but nothing suddenly works. So you quit the player and restart if after which is tells that the audio device could not be selected (and what it should have said in the previous round of things). Get that right and all plays again. But change the samp,ing rate in the playlist to something lower than what it already could do, and nothing works any more.
And this is not any NOS1a thing - it is just the MoBo device.

... I spent 10 more minutes on this, but this MoBo device which allows 44100 and 88200 via XXHighEnd, does not allow that at all in HQP; 96000 is the minimum. So you see, you can keep on trying forver is things inherently are not right somewhere. And undoubtedly this starts with insufficient knowlegde (by me) because I don't see the logic of it anywhere.

Anyway, in W7 the NOS1a just works in the end (3.5.1) with dual wire as well, and in W10 I get nothing running. This can just as well be W10, which is known for its sound device problems.

Peter

[RiCo]

Mani,

First of all I am a recent (very) happy Phasure owner. HQPlayer and Phasure work together very well on my MacMini with a stripped down version of Yosemite (think minimized OS) loaded from a SD card.  Up-sampling to 705K works very smoothly. I can confirm your settings (NS5 and closed loop filter) to wich I would add poly-sinc-shrt-mp.
One question: When running HQPlayer and Roon did the SQ go down when compared to running HQPlayer by itself?

Following Peter's advice I am now running Windows 10 and XXHighEnd (Arc, 705K) on same MacMini. Thank you Peter for your help and especially patience. Yes, some men do not read TFM until things are FUBAR.

According to Jussi the ball is in Peter's court (Jussi does not have a NOS1a to test).

The way I see it we have two options. We can ask Peter to:
1. Fix the driver so that HQPLayer on Windows 10 works with NOS1a, or
2. Enable XXHighEnd as a Roon end point.

Peter, what would it take to make #2 a reality?

Rica

[PeterSt]

Hi Rica,

According to Jussi the ball is in Peter's court (Jussi does not have a NOS1a to test).

This is not entirely true and be careful not to chronologically change things.

a. he said that prior to my last endeavours and response (previous post).
b. I already worked it out with Jussi and this is just a closed project;
c. why ? well, because it just works.

Again : That I (nor you) can get it to work is most probably caused by us both not knowing what to exactly do. I mean, if it takes be 45 minutes again after I already knew it back in 2014 for Windows 7, then something is going on with the user interface or general idea etc. And please notice that it is far from the first time that people told me that it did not work, while I have been the one in such occasions to explain how to do it. This is a bit odd, right ? I mean, it is not my software and I am also not the user of it (you guys are).

Also notice that a driver is just a driver and when it works it just works. What you out there seem to get of that some times is that a driver is voodoo, especially when starting at the wrong end. So ... with switch #5 Up and the number of channels in the driver set to two as one normally would do for stereo and no hoopla, it just works with everything and all because it is now "made" for everything and all. Like Foobar for instance. If that does not work, it is just "us" (this includes you) who don't know how to deal with the environment (which in this case is stupid Windows 10 !)  which probably comes down to it not working at all for some indirect reason.
The latter I can put simply like this : if Sw#5 is Up and channel output is set to Stereo Reduced and Foobar does not want to work, it is or you or W10 not working at all with the notice that XXHighEnd should be very special because it works with any hassle (I tell you, none whatsoever). Do notice though that it was me who got WASAPI running 2 years prior to a second. So possibly I know more ?

Drop the HQP is not working thing. Install Foobar and see whether it works (384 max). It does ? then HQP will work too. If it really really doesn't (384 max) then something does not work in W10 for HQP.
Never forget : in W7 all just works. In W8 too, I am pretty sure. In W10 ? I never heard anyone about it so we don't know. I can't do it (you neither so far) and it is not related to any special setting like Sw#5 down. Do not forget that too. Sw#5 up and Stereo output and nothing is special anywhere.

Peter

[PeterSt]

2. Enable XXHighEnd as a Roon end point.

Peter, what would it take to make #2 a reality?

Rica, this is not possible because it is SQ related; you'd have the same as Roon (+ Tidal) on its own and if that is acceptable then you don't need XXHighEnd in the first place, right ? Btw, same would count for Roont (+ Tidal) + HQPlayer.

Advice, btw, is to get yourself one more - or a couple of more of HDDs/SSDs/ (in your case) SDs for different Win OS versions. This is what we (most) got quite used to and works way better than for example reinstalling W8 or whatever. Just have two or more disks and exchange. In the end this saves huge time.

Peter

[RiCo]

Peter,

I was able to get HQPlayer to (kid of) work on Win 10 at 705K (both in normal and minimized OS). Quite often the sound would become garbled and sometimes slower. This abnormal behavior was displayed as well when HQPlayer was running as a Roon end point. At this moment I give up. This exercise reminded me that to use Windows one has to be into S&M.
Rica

[JohanZ]

Interesting profile you have ".....Phisolator ->NOS1a -> B'ASS......"

Regards Johan

[RiCo]

Johan,

Phisolator + NOS1a + B'ASS are inside same H shaped box. Not sure what the actual denomination would be according to Peter. Mentioned all of them due to the impact on SQ that each has. I have to say it is one mighty sound making machine!

Rica

[PeterSt]

Rica, there is nothing wrong with your signature despite you were the first with this denotation and had to make it up yourself. But since theoretically each is a self contained option, it is fine as it is.

Johan (and Rica too), of course you made the remark because you notice that this should be the first proof of the B'ASS etc. being out there. And indeed it is so that Rica is the very first, he ordering the NOS1a with B'ASS last October and the waiting must have been killing (because as we all know I always postponed (had to)).

What Rica does not know really, is how he hits the nail on the head with remarks as one mighty sound making machine!. Without further notice this may read as "nice / good sound" but I know we can read this differently, if we see how Rica described this in subsequent emails like this (Rica, allow me) :

Very musical and realistic plus lots of energy

he not really knowing the absolute merits because he does not have any "NOS1" reference. Anyway, this reference to "energy" I/we have never seen before, so it hardly can be a coincidence with the notice that this is the whole idea about the B'ASS and a very first immediately refers to this as a key point.

So Rica, I never really responded to your expressions like these, but I can tell you that I am quite flattered !

Regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

The latter I can put simply like this : if Sw#5 is Up and channel output is set to Stereo Reduced and Foobar does not want to work, it is or you or W10 not working at all...

I couldn't be bothered to install Foobar, but I did try selecting the WDM device in XX. No matter what I tried, I kept getting the 'Unsupported Format' error.

So I suppose we can assume that HQP in W10-14393 is simply not going to work correctly. Having said this, HQP was working correctly with the Chord 2Qute I had here for a while. But IIRC, I only used ASIO, and not WASAPI - can't be sure though.

This has put a bummer on my desire to replace the microRendu in my office with a W10-14393 audio PC.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani,

Before I apply a dozen reboots myself ... you mean just XXHighEnd and the NOS1a, is that right ?

Also, did you try this in Normal OS ever ? So you may recall that nothing really will install in MinOS. And if you never tried in Normal OS, the driver is just not fully installed.
Btw, not that Rica could know this ...

So can you try this please ?
Thanks,
Peter

[manisandher]

Yep, XX on Mach II and NOS1a (#5 up).

Everything in Normal OS (of course  )

Mani.

[PeterSt]

So ... before I try myself ... who are we going to blame if it does not work ?

[PeterSt]

Answer : not me. But I am also not sure how to solve it, and I feel it requires a normal monitor connection first. I mean :

The error message and whole situation is exactly the same as if the "Remote Audio" device would be (accidentally) selected. See 10586.0 where it all works perfectly, unless that Remote Audio is redirected (I hope I need not further to explain). But also : the audio problems can not be solved (see button for it) when at an RDC connection. Thus, error message the same, and that too smells fishy.
And I am not going to get out my monitor, which, well, is connected to that other pile.

Anyway, 10586.0 is fine with it. 14393.0 indeed is not and most 100% probably HQP's problem as well.

Peter

PS: Watch out : There's a bug in 2.07 (or longer) which requires the Sound Engine to be killed when the Sound Device in XXHighEnd is changed. This is most misleading of course (I only found out about this yesterday).

[PeterSt]

PS: Another indication for 14393.0 is that the loudspeaker icon remains "red" (not available) until you explicitly change the output channels (and back). So this is all once again W10 sh*t ...

[manisandher]

Peter, I just loaded the iFi driver and connected the iFi Nano DAC to the Mach II (W10-14393), and:

1. HQP/WASAPI works perfectly
2. XX/WASAPI works perfectly

So that leaves the NOS1a driver at fault, no?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

No.
That leaves W10 at fault.

You seriously think that this driver, working for years, is going to be revisited because some stupid W10 version (which from its start *always* has problems with sound) suddenly does not work with it ?
Just look how wackey it works with that loudspeaker icon staying red and all. Or how the enhanced tab (which is quite crucial regarding the "Exclusive Mode stuff on it) of the device's properties can appear or disappear.

You can try 1.03 if you like (works with XXHighend properly only (don't forget the driver103.tst)) and may notice that it does not work just the same. I did not try it, but I take it there will be no difference. This makes it go back all the way to Vista.

Peter

[PeterSt]

PS: It was already known that other devices work, so really no need to connect a dozen more for proof. Google for sound device problems and Windows 10 will "help" more.
Don't get drowned in them.

[PeterSt]

I forgot to tell ... regarding what I see, I think I can get it to work at some stage. But at this moment this really can't have priority. Sorry for that.
And I'd say that if one these days wants to use WASAPI he just as well can use 10586.0, which very many do anyway. It is of course for a reason that seriously everybody uses Kernel Streaming (oh sure, a few may say "me not !").

Peter

[manisandher]

And I'd say that if one these days wants to use WASAPI he just as well can use 10586.0, which very many do anyway.

It's not that I want to use WASAPI, but rather that I'd like to use Roon in my office. And in order to do this, I have to get HQP working with the NOS1a.

But you're right, no reason not to use 10586.0 for this purpose, which is exactly what I'll do. So a solution of sorts

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Thank you Mani.
... which doesn't really solve Rica's problem I suppose. So we must all realize that you and me (and many others) boot in a wimp into that other OS - just like me testing this all. But this is very very different from someone not owning the RAM OS Disk. So say that this message is just a heads up for Rica and that I don't want to belittle Rica's problem (nor yours of course).

Regards,
Peter

[RiCo]

Peter,

It appears that I will have to install W10586 if I can find an install media with that release. After installing the new Win version will I have to register XX again?
Peter we'll have to find a way to help / cajole you into moving off Windows!

Regarding SQ comments earlier in the thread, the NOS1a and BASS deliver the goods in spades but to have the 'energy' thing one has to run XXHighEnd and to also have amplifiers with large energy reserves. This is in addition to good power, speaker cables with RLC that compensate the speaker, etc. It usually takes time and money to fine tune such a system. I was lucky to just remove the old DAC and plug NOS1a in my system and the music became alive, really.

My previous comment about the player should not be interpreted as a thumbs down to HQPlayer. On the contrary Jussi has done a fine job with HQPlayer.
On my mini running Yosemite it sounded analytical. When running under Win 10 it has a smoother sound with a blooming bass. When running as a Roon end point the SQ goes down by quite a bit on both OSes - not HQPlayer's fault.

The weakest link in my system right now is the Mini. I will have to either get the HighEndPC or look at Mani's set-up and try to build a similar one. Still not clear to me why he had to water cool his rig when Peter's is running on so much lower power.

Rica

[PeterSt]

Hi Rica,

All loud and clear.

It appears that I will have to install W10586 if I can find an install media with that release.

I will send you a link to that Build right now ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

For myself, or for others :

And *again* I have been strugging for an hour to get something out of HQP. At least from W8 but maybe with the knowledge I obtained there, also from 10586.0 (must see about that later).
In general, this is how it works :

You set the "Sample Rate (/Limit)" to what you want to play or upsample to. As far as I can tell this must be equal to what the Driver is currently set to. And this is the caveat (again,as far as I can see) : HQP does not dictate anything to the Driver for Sample Rate setting - it absorbs instead and next it must match.
When you did these both you MUST reload whatever track in the Playlist because the former one (possibly still there) is connected to its (!) set sample rate and things will never work any more.

A next thing to guess (nothing explicitly in the manual about that, but in the end I figured it out) is that with Dual Wire the Sample Rate in the driver MUST be half of what is set in HQP itself. Thus, set 352800 in there, load a track which next will also show the 352800 in the haeder with the chosen filter, dither means and codec (like PCM). So now things again "match" which remains the prerequisite.
Side note : this ratio is nothing different from XXHighEnd but this works the other way around (the source dictates) and this thus always works (as long as the DAC can accept the output (of the player) Sample Rate.
Also notice that with Dual Wire, 4 channels are expected (as in "Dual Stereo"), thus set the Driver to that (output). But also select the 4.0 Driver in HQP under "Device").

Knowing all this, and especially knowthing that this all works like this, it only takes one step further for 705600 : add that one step everywhere. Thus, set the driver to 352800 (was 176400), set HQP to 750600 in Sample Rate (/Limit), reload the same track and ... it does NOT work.

What I see with Dual Wire, is that somehow now surely the Sample Rate of the Driver is cut in half. Thus, driver can get that command after all and something special possibly is happening. But when that happens, HQP always hangs and must be killed. This is when I go lower with the Sample Rate; When I go higher, again the Sample Rate in the Driver is properly set, but this time just nothing happens for playback but nothing hangs and we can press stop.
I suppose that what is happening here, is that possibly too soon the set Sample Rate is received because it takes maybe 100-200ms to set it (this happens in the DAC). And yes, I now notice that if in this latter situation I press Play one more time, it just works (and I recall that now). And you know what ? loaded with this crazy data I got the 705600 running as well.

Mind you, Windows 8 this time (and 100 minutes or so further AGAIN).

Peter

[PeterSt]

I got it all to work now. See upcoming post ...

[PeterSt]

ALWAYS KILL XXENGINE3.EXE prior to a next playback attempt. This is due to a bug in XXHighEnd which disallows to change the Sound Device from withing the these days always running XXEgnine3.exe.

I will just put all in the sequence I experienced it myself.

Today I started out with W10 10074 in the hope that nothing had changed much regarding the transition from W8/W8.1 to W10. So, I learned that things had changed in WASAPI, and thought that this could be the culprit (something not compatible any more, which could count for XXHighEnd but just the same for HQP.


Thus this is for W10 10074 :

You may notice the flashing loudspeaker icon in the Taskbar Tray (people reported this (ever changign sample rate) in the past indeed, and I recall that "one time playing" solved that flashing).

Switch off all Enhancements in Sound Device Properties - Enhancement tab.

(later we will see that this is key to all)

Select KS in XXHighEnd and play a little. This stops the flashing, and gives the ability to change other things while being in "WASAPI mode" (otherwise the ever changing locks you out from applying different settings).

Do notice that I am first attempting to let XXHighEnd work with WASAPI under W10 (and sure not the ever so (for me) vague HQP incarnation of it).

Select WDM in XXHighEnd and play a little.

Loudspeaker icon in Taskbar Tray now does not flash and all is fine. We can play with the WDM (WASAPI) device with just these settings (but they are not crucial

One caveat : Afer a reboot we again must first play a little in KS and repeat the procedure. I dedicate this to W10074.

Here some more screenshots to show the major settings which work in consistency (again, without seeing anything crucial about it) :

I apply the same to 10586.0.

In 10586.0 HQP plays up to 352800 (352800 in HQP settings and 176400 in Driver Control Panel). Notice that this is with 2Wire.
XXHighEnd is fine with 705600.

In 10586.0 HQP *only* plays with mentioned 352800. Not higher but also nothing lower. To me it seems that this is stuck in the missing tab (Driver Properties - Enhanced). So the main thing occurring opposed to W8 is that HQP will not change the Sample Rate as we see it in the Driver Control Panel (I did not test this with 10074).

I decide to reinstall the driver.
When the Driver is reinstalled, the Advanced Tab comes back; what we can see in there is that only sample rates 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.2, 24/96, 24/192 and 24/384 are supported for Shared Mode. 24/384 is (found to be) selected.
When we play a little with the KS: driver, the Advanced tab disappears.
Playback Attempt gives an "Invalidarg" error message.
After this re-install of the driver it appeared that I forgot to disable all Enhancements, and when I did that, the advanced tab reappeared. Also, there's now 24/382.8 visible, but in a strange fashion.

I now selected this 24/352.8 in the Advanced Tab.
HQP now works.
(later I found that this step of selecting this 24/352.8 most probably is unrelated)

I set the Driver Control Panel to 384, set HQP to 768, selected a 24/96 and that works as well.
Maybe this can go with less manipulation, but at least this all works.

I rebooted 10586.0, started with a 16/44.1 which played right away. However, I abusively let HQP be at 768 and so it played with 768 output.
In the hope not to destroy things, I changed the Driver Control Panel to 352.8, changed HQP to 705.6 and all still worked.

The above has all been in Attended Mode.

I Deactivated Stop WASAPI services (so with Unattended Mode nothing of the above can have worked, thus please think of this) and booted into MinOS.
HQP still works in one go.

The above has been 10586.0. Now 14393.0 :

14393.0 seemed more wackey to me, as this somehow allows for the loudspeaker icon to go red. This, while the sound device is still there *if* one can open the sound device stuff via that icon (which is not always the case). In earlier occasions (5 or so) I never ever got any smallest sound from 14393.0 (WASAPI).

First I am going to reinstall the driver (always the 1.04b one).
I usually do this by means of the Setup.exe and not via explicit Uninstalling from the "installed" folder. Doing it like this usually implies that a reboot is necessary right after the automtaic Uninstall (this is asked for) but not always. This time it again was (feels good that ot does so). After the reboot I started the Setup.exe again.

Loudspeaker icon is now normally white.
All shows the same, in every aspect, as 10586.0 did.
I again disabled all the Enhancements.

I set HQP to 705.6 (2 wire), Driver Control Panel to 352.8, loaded a 16/44.1 and ... that now too works in one go, while before I was dead sure that especially 14393.0 couldn't do a thing with this (and WASAPI in general).

Conclusion : Because of a totally stupid W10 quirk nothing works. But find that quirk and you won't notice a thing of "nothing works". I am again 4 hours further.


Let's keep in mind that this setting is the major one which lets all fail, when set differently than you see here :

Peter

[manisandher]

Hi Peter, everything's working here with 14393. Thanks so much for spending the time to sort this out - I doubt anyone else would've been able to.

I've just completed my office audio PC build (to replace the microRendu, which I sold) and this solution could not have come at a better time. I haven't tried Roon yet, but will do so soon.

Thanks again.

Mani.

[manisandher]

I'm currently sitting in my home office listening to music through my newly-built audio PC (with RAM-OS) and Roon -> HQPlayer (poly-sinc-xtr, NS5, 705.6) -> NOS1a, and I have to say I'm very pleased with the results. So much better than the microRendu/LPS-1 I was using before.

Comparing HQP to XX has been interesting. XX just sounds more 'alive' and real. I'm not sure if this is down to the different filters in the 2 players or XX's memory capabilities. For 'critical' listening in my main room, I'll always use XX. But for listening to music in my office, the slightly 'darker' and generally more relaxed sound from HQP works well. And I like using Roon in my office, though less so in my main room where I usually know what I want to listen to but sometimes find it hard to locate in Roon.

Thanks again Peter. I'm very happy

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani - Thank you for sharing !

Best regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

I'm now listening to internet radio on Roon through the NOS1a. The total path is:

Roon [on music server] -> HQP (poly-sinc-xtr-MP, NS5, 705.6) [on audio PC] -> NOS1a -> amp (volume controlled by Roon)

Listening to BBC Radio 3, even though it 'only' streams at 16/48 320kbps, I have to say the SQ is really very good. Time to finally take down the massive FM antenna I have on the roof of the house!

Perhaps getting the NOS1a working effortlessly with Roon/HQP may open up a whole new customer base for the NOS1a? Unfortunately, I suspect many who may have been interested in this approach in the past have already jumped onto the DSD DAC bandwagon. (Not meaning to be derogatory here.)

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

Why would a Roon/HQP combination incur for some DSD relation ? Do you stream DSD from Tidal perhaps ?
haha

Anyway, I still don't know about anybody who likes DSD better over something the NOS1(a) can play (which is PCM of course). Same counts for HQP etc.

What we should be careful about (if that's an appropriate expression) is that there are trainloads of people who like DSD or Audirvana or Dirac Live or Hires or ... make up your own combination, who have no reference (obviously ! ... says me). Those are lost cases anyway, until they could be convicted somehow. But please notice that I myself care less because if such a same crowd would (over here) start to shout about everything which sounds "te best" while still not having any reference ... now THAT would be bad. Bad for further serious development.

For example, think about how "we" are not shouting on any CA forum. We just don't. This, while the same "we" seem to have genuinely the best sound. No wait, no need to claim that. "We" hear differences that nobody else observes - not even after a million hints.

I am fine with this all. But in the end it is about "you".

Peter

PS: If you watch carefully you can see that DSD is already behind us. Not really related, but how people just shout around a bit before they finally find out after 7-8 years.
PPS: Now start watching MQA (I say nothing yet but explicitly express that it can go either direction).

[manisandher]

Why would a Roon/HQP combination incur for some DSD relation ?

My feeling is that the majority of people who use HQP do so to 'upsample' PCM to DSD, which they then feed to their DSD DACs, ranging from a humble iFi up to a fully speced-out Lampi. And it was this crowd that I was referring to. (Whether they use Roon or not is neither here nor there.)

Anyway, I still don't know about anybody who likes DSD better over something the NOS1(a) can play (which is PCM of course). Same counts for HQP etc.

Oh, I think there are many over at CA who are convinced that PCM is evil and DSD pure/good. And a player that can perform the alchemy of turning the evil into good is the new messiah. Don't get me wrong, I really like HQP's DSP functionality - I've found it a great learning tool, especially with the NOS1a.

I am fine with this all. But in the end it is about "you".

Well, if it's about me, let me say that I don't think I've ever been more content with the sound I'm getting in my two systems. I'm not saying they're perfect at all, but really, I'm at a point now where the quality of the sound is satisfying enough to allow me to just relax and listen to the music, as opposed to constantly obsessing about this or that element of the sound.

And the NOS1 upgrades still to come

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani,

Maybe I should have explicitly added that we agree to begin with. So all I did (and you do too) is create context. So another example (now) :

Oh, I think there are many over at CA who are convinced that PCM is evil and DSD pure/good.

Exactly. But Exactly^2 because of that other message you brought which I agree with :

My feeling is that the majority of people who use HQP do so to 'upsample' PCM to DSD,

... which starts out as PCM. Maybe we recall that I too can have the theoretical (!) idea that this works out for the better (in the very end it is upsampling way beyond our 16x and the more the better) BUT one huge difference : I "did" that without the HF noise coming along with DSD.
Of course I "did" nothing as such, but the program works. It is only that the receiver (= NOS2) never came about.

Once, on a rainy Sunday, I will try DSD myself. I am 100% sure I will have the most excessive expressions about it, with a bet that it will be negative all over. This is also how I referred to Audirvana (which is not HQP of course) which is quite unlistenable (all is relative, but some will know what I mean). It is one big pile of processing (nothing abnormal here) and you hear it. "We" imply the exact opposite (and hear that).

Best regards and thanks,
Peter (who only thinks DSD is evil )

[boleary]

Mani, just wondering, are you running HQ Player from RAM-OS or from a BASE volume?

[christoffe]

PPS: Now start watching MQA (I say nothing yet but explicitly express that it can go either direction).

http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/questions-answers-mqa-interview-andreas-koch/

[manisandher]

Mani, just wondering, are you running HQ Player from RAM-OS or from a BASE volume?

Hi Brian, I'm running everything in RAM-OS. Personally, I think this is absolutely necessary for the best sound.

Mani.

[toddn]

Hey Guys,

Sorry to pipe into this conversation so late, but I've been running HQPlayer from the RAM OS with W10 14393 for about 3 months now. I did not, however, know I could run it at 705Khz through the NOS1 dual input mode. So I was only running it a 352 in standard input mode. I guess I just got lucky, because it ran from the start to the NOS1a without any issue. But now a big thank you to Peter for ironing out the idiosyncrasies of using it with the NOS1a and up to 705 and 768k!

I found XXHighEnd still preferable for PCM playback. I was really using it more when listening to a Holo Spring DAC in DSD mode. I really wanted to hear how that sounded coming from the Mach II and RAM-OS. It worked great for that, but other than Mani's purpose of using Roon as a server to his secondary office set up,  I wouldn't use it with the NOS1a.

Also of note in my little experiment, I found that if I wanted to use the Mach II with HQPlayer upscaling to DSD 512 into the Holo Spring DAC in NOS mode,  I had to switch out my Xeon 2650 v4 12 core to 6800k 6 core that runs at a much higher clock rate. Of note, the 6800k runs fine on the Mach II linear power supply even though it is a 135w processor. Maybe I need a 2nd Mach II

Todd

[manisandher]

Having been feeding the NOS1a with HQPlayer, set to one of its most demanding PCM outputs (poly-sinc-xtr-mp/NS5/705.6) for the last few weeks with absolutely zero glitches, and really very good sound, I've asked Jussi to add the NOS1a to his 'recommended hardware' list. (Of course, it's totally his decision whether he does or not.)

Just to be clear though, I still have a strong preference for XXHighEnd in my main system - it just sounds better in MinOS mode. But being able to use Roon with the NOS1a is just perfect for my office system.

Mani.

[jabbr]

I hope I'm close to getting this working and suspect I'm missing something really basic but I need some assistance.

I've installed Windows 10 onto my "NAA", connected the NOS1a and installed the driver (after enabling unsigned). I running Signalyst networkaudiod (NAA). This is seen in HQPlayer. When I play a song all seems good but no sound comes from the NOS1a.

[PeterSt]

Jonathan,

If you applied what's in this post and also do *not* use ASIO in the firts place, ... without more data points I can not tell.

Do you have the Driver Control Panel running ("Streaming is up and runnng" in the bottom line) and showing now errors ?

I suppose there's more questions to ask regarding the combination with the NAA, but personally I don't know anything about that.

Peter

[jabbr]

Peter, no I hadn't applied that post ...

some weirdness, when I look at the NOS1a driver properties, there is no "Advanced" tab and I need to reinstall the driver ... not signed to I will reboot into the special mode for unsigned drivers and try again... (really loving Windows more and more now ... 

this post seems helpful!

Jonathan

[jabbr]

Still no luck ... is it possible I need to do something with ASIO mapping? ... I think NOS1a is up and running so this is likely an NAA issue at the moment. (I have no idea of what an ASIO mapping is, but NAA seems to be sending the output to "Dummy" channel even though it is picking up the NOS1a driver

I'm feeling close though ... got some system sounds through my headphones !!

[PeterSt]

Jonathan,

This Advanced tab really is key. If you don't get that or have that, go back to basics first and use XXHighEnd and Kernel Streaming. There's really no issue other than apparently only me understanding what's happening with WASAPI and HQPlayer ... somehow. haha

Drop ASIO because it is really not related and seriously won't work anyway. So that's the wrong track always ...

You will get it done !
Peter

[jabbr]

Ok progress ... I have sound playing through HQPlayer via NAA ... but now only the left channel ... when I test the driver both R/L go to left channel ... reinstalled driver and now all sound in right channel ...

Not sure what to do?

[PeterSt]

With "one wire" 384 (max), Sw#5 (the one the fartest away from you) must be Up. In NOS Driver Control Panel select Stereo Reduced.

With "dual wire" (705.6/768) Sw#5 must be Down. In NOS Driver Control Panel select Multichannel 4.0.

That should be it on the non-HQP side of things.

Peter

[jabbr]

Ok thanks! "Stereo reduced" ... didn't try that setting because ... err.. never thought I'd want my stereo reduced ... 

[jabbr]

Now (this is still a non-HQP issue), when I uninstall and then reinstall the NOS1a driver, I get *2* drivers names:
"Phasure NOS1a Out1 L/R"
"Phasure NOS1a Out2 L/R"

the first does only the left channel and the second only the right channel.

Somehow, even though I've uninstalled and then rebooted and then reinstalled, Windows remembers my settings.. (Stereo reduced)


Jonathan

[PeterSt]

Jonathan, this is all normal but still works in combination with the switch I mentioned, which you apparently do not take into account, or which works against you with HQP regarding the understanding of matters. So yes, this is all outside of HQP but since you are using HQP which normal human beings can't even get going (except for me) ...

I want you to download XXHighEnd and use the KS: prefixed driver (HQP does not support Kerner Streaming). There's one additional parameter involved now (but in the end no different than in HQP) and this is the "Is NOS1" button which I want you to activate (red). Now put Sw#5 down and select Multi Channel 4.0 in the NOS Driver Control Panel.
Set the output sampling rate in XXHighEnd to 705600 or 758000 accordingly. Or lower is also allowed (try to avoid 44100/48000).
You will see that this normally works ... (and in one go instead of not-understandable silence from HQP).

Done ?
Then put up Sw#5, deactivate Is NOS1 (blue) and celect Stereo Reduced in the Control Panel. Now select the first L/R device. And, taking into account that you need to set the driver settings per that screenshot I referred to yesterday (I take it that you have done that anyway), you will see again that it works. That is, if the output sampling rate in XXHighEnd is now set to 352800/384000 max.

While this is the mode for HQP, do notice that you now just as well can use the KS: Prefixed driver again. So you can see what's happening. But this is what HQP can not do (you won't be able to select / see that driver in there).

Understand all ?
Then now start over with HQP which people without this guide (/topic) can't do anyway. Me neither. Well, I did in the end ...
IOW don't blame yourself and hold on.

Peter

PS: And always keep on thinking about that Sw#5 because I have the hunch you maybe don't ...

[jabbr]

I'm getting all sorts of errors.

Switches #2,#3,#5 all down. NOS1a checked (red)
XXHE gives me "Engine #3" fails to start
"Unsupported format" errors with both FLAC and AIFF files...

The screenshots in the "Dummy" install guides don't match 2.07 so I feel that I'm flailing

[acg]

Hi Jabbr,

Probably best to start a new topic with your XXHE install problems.   Peter likes to keep threads largely on topic.

Xxhe can be tricky to get installed so I commiserate, and although Peters English is light years ahead of my Dutch  I occasionally miss something in translation but if you follow the instructions exactly it should work and of not ask Peter in a new topic.

Since I went to RAM-OS I've not had to install xxhe so will be of little help.

Anthony

[jabbr]

After multiple reboots, reinstalls and who knows what, it is working in XXHE ... now onto HQP as NAA. Sound is terrific so far

[PeterSt]

[manisandher]

... now onto HQP as NAA.

So help me out here. How would you be able to connect the NOS1a to an NAA without a Linux driver for the NOS1a? What am I missing?

I use the following chain in my office system:

Roon (on music server) -> direct ethernet connection -> HQPlayer (on W10 audio PC) -> NOS1a

Here, the audio PC can't be regarded as an NAA, because it's doing the heavy lifting for HQPlayer... right?

Mani.

[jabbr]

... now onto HQP as NAA.

So help me out here. How would you be able to connect the NOS1a to an NAA without a Linux driver for the NOS1a? What am I missing?

I use the following chain in my office system:

Roon (on music server) -> direct ethernet connection -> HQPlayer (on W10 audio PC) -> NOS1a

Here, the audio PC can't be regarded as an NAA, because it's doing the heavy lifting for HQPlayer... right?

Mani.

The NAA can run either Windows or Linux.

In my case I run HQPlayer on an OS X machine which outputs to NAA.
XXHE runs fine on the machine I want to use as NAA. I have a lot of both PCM and DSD source material that I want to compare side by side.

My problem is that when I click the #5 switch up/off, and set the driver -> Stereo reduced, then I get 2 drivers in Windows' list of drivers, and when I select the first for the NAA connection, I get sound in my left ear, and when I select the second, I get sound in the right ear. If I either leave the switch up or down, and select Multichannel 4.0, then I get 1 driver, and all the sound is in the left ear

I also tried remoting the NOS1a across my fiberoptic network at the USB level (VirtualHere) but that just didn't work (no surprise

What would be great would be if Roon could just stream to XXHE...

Alternatively PeterSt can compile XXHE for the Windows 10 armhf version ... (in my dreams) and then it can run on the ClearFog...

[PeterSt]

Hi Jonathan,

Possibly I don't have any real input for you, but I can always try ...

I feel that for 50% of the "challenge" you may think upside down. But, this is already hard for myself to pose correctly. So :

If you run XXHighEnd on what we'd call the Audio PC, then this PC containts totally nothing. Btw I am pretty sure that you do similar with the iSCSI boot (but it is not 100% the same, technically). Thus :
OS boots from RAM and now everything and all can be disconnected. This includes the Network.

When music data is needed, the network is connected (software wise) and the files are loaded in RAM of the Audio PC (this is the PC which plays the music and where the DAC is connected to). After that, network is disconnected again.
Side note : when RDC is used then a small portion of the network needs to stay alive - let's solve that one day.

When music is playing, it is XXEngine3.exe which is active. Nothing else. This situation is as lean as I could make it. Notice though that XXEngine3 is running on the Audio PC itself which may feel counter productive because others do this some other way around : they control the Audio PC on a distance, the player GUI running on that PC at the distance. In our case the player GUI runs on the Audio PC itself, but is completely killed when music starts. Only a small hook to keyboard shortcuts remain, for control.

So intead of controlling the Audio engine from a distance, there is no control needed because all else on the Audio PC is killed and the remaining situation is the same as the one you're thinking of : the audio engine running on its own in a dedicated PC (because it just made itself into that).

The way the music is loaded is exactly the same as in your thinking (I suppose) with the difference perhaps that it is not pushed but pulled by the Audio PC itself. When ? well, when no music is playing - you being in (GUI) control again and thus harmless.

The mistake you may be making is the thinking that the Audio "processor" must be small and not-consuming etc. etc. ... WRONG. Wrong because nobody has ever been able to proove that anything small sounded for the better; the contrary - it is deep-sh*t (and should be your situation as of now, no matter you like it very much).
So my approach is - and always has been the other way around : use that super machine which actually is not needed, with the notice that when it drives a 100 miles/hour it still is in 5 seconds at 200 miles/hour. This, while your PC barely gets at 100 at all.
And the more this strategy is put through, the better the sound is (which is also related to what can be done under the hood for processor cores etc.).
In the end it is the combination, like the 20++ core processor system only consumes 30Watts and that even with linear PSU.

You did try Minimized OS, right ? because it is all about that.
Maybe I should also ask about Unattended Playback because that is what I implicitly talked about (no GUI).


If I am all the way off, just tell me !
And of course don't hesitate in being creative and improve. It's all about that you know. So the text above is only trying to give you some context of the current situation,

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Roon (on music server) -> direct ethernet connection -> HQPlayer (on W10 audio PC) -> NOS1a

Here, the audio PC can't be regarded as an NAA, because it's doing the heavy lifting for HQPlayer... right?

Right.

[PeterSt]

The NAA can run either Windows or Linux.

In my case I run HQPlayer on an OS X machine which outputs to NAA.
XXHE runs fine on the machine I want to use as NAA.
[...]
My problem is that when I click the #5 switch up/off, and set the driver -> Stereo reduced, then I get 2 drivers in Windows' list of drivers, and when I select the first for the NAA connection, I get sound in my left ear, and when I select the second, I get sound in the right ear. If I either leave the switch up or down, and select Multichannel 4.0, then I get 1 driver, and all the sound is in the left ear

Hmm ... Tell me, do you have actually normal sound at the highest sampling speed (705600 / 768000) ?

Let's say you are ready for the next step : let HQP run on your Windows machine - the exact same situation as how you currently use XXHighEnd and which works (at the highest speed, I assume).
Maybe you already tried that, but do notice that the topic we are typing in is exactly about this. Thus if you can not get this to run first, then any NAA situation will be too problematic.
Now :

Assumed that you already had HQP (Desktop version !) normally running on the same Windows PC as where you have XXHighEnd running, you will then definitely know how to set things, right ? Now do the same in the NAA environment.
Doesn't work there ? then call out for Jussi.

Keep in mind that for me too it is mighty difficult without the experience (again see this topic) and that, for example, it is very easy to forget to set that one Windows setting (I again refer to that screenshot) - which coincidentally is a W10 issue.
Anyway, it would be my guess (easily) that the NAA version hasn't been tested by anyone regarding this matter. Or maybe it was, but then not the Windows incarnation of it.
And uhm ... I did not even know that this existed ...

We'll get it to work !
Peter

[PeterSt]

Alternatively PeterSt can compile XXHE for the Windows 10 armhf version ... (in my dreams) and then it can run on the ClearFog...

At this moment I can't tell whether this is (relatively) easily possible or not. You actually should ask Jussi because I recall that ever back he made his software (or sound engine part) run on ARM for the Surface. Mind you, this can be (or could be !) done for WASAPI only. The kind of fun was that already that behaved like a nice audio endpoint because WASAPI inherently supports (supported ?) such a thing.
On a side note, I have been glad not to dive into such a solution because no ARM Surface exists any more ...

So the question is how transparant this ARM/WASAPI is. If this is not Surface related at all, it can still be done. But Jussi will be able to tell from the top of his head; I will only know after attempting it.

On another note, do notice that exactly nobody is using WASAPI (in XXHighEnd) while everybody is just allowed to. It just sounds worse (and is another layer) and has few possibilities compared to Kernel Streaming. But hey, this is on normal Windows where the choice exists ...

Peter

[manisandher]

I've had a couple of PMs recently asking me to just go through the steps in getting the Roon -> HQPlayer -> NOS1 path working correctly. Most of the important steps have already been spelled out in Peter's earlier posts in this thread, but I thought I'd put it all together.

1. Make sure you are in Normal OS!

2. Install Phasure driver (I use 1.04).

3. Go into Windows Sound Properties and make sure 'Disable all enhancements' is ticked [Peter discovered that this is the key to getting this all to work].

4. In HQPlayer Settings, select Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0 as Device

5. Make sure '2wire' is ticked [the NOS1 is probably the only DAC that can actually use this in PCM!]

6. Peter found that the correct sample rate needs to be selected in the Phasure Control Panel. (The rate shown in the Control Panel will be 1/2 the rate that will actually be sent to the NOS1 - don't worry about this, that's what the '2wire' is all about.) Ordinarily, XXHighEnd will do all this automatically, but HQPlayer doesn't seem to be able to do this. So we need to do it manually. What I recommend is simply selecting 384kHz first, and then selecting 352.8kHz back again - to force the Control Panel to the rate we want.

7. Probably best to test that everything is working locally at this point. But ultimately, you want to use Roon remotely. To do this, firstly ensure the 'network' icon is selected on the HQP Desktop.

8. In Roon, add HQPlayer. Simply put in the IP address where HQP sits.

9. Test that everything is working correctly!

10. Everything will work in MinOS mode and RAM-OS, but make sure you have 'Stop WASAPI' disengaged in XXHighEnd before going into MinOS.

11. Sit back and enjoy the second best sound you can achieve from a NOS1 

Fire away with questions if you have any.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani, thank you for your help !

Kind regards,
Peter

[Kravi4ka]

Hm,

I honestly hate to bring this up but I read everything very carefully, did all I read here, several times and I cannot get the HQplayer to make a single sound through the NOS1a G3...

I did a fresh driver installation on a computer that doesn't have an XXhighend player installed(managed to do so after I switched off "signed off" in Windowds 10), then I went to Sounds and found the Phasure 1.0.4 WDM driver 4.0, disabled all enhancements. Even set it up as default once.

Then I run Control board, chose 384000 and then 352.K and hit apply. Chose 12ms for the USB buffer.

Then went to HQplayer setup and checked all the boxes as per Mani's instructions.

When I load a file by drag and drop on HQP and press play I get a window that as below the progress bar and a blue line goes from left to right and sometimes back but I never hear sound and the progress bar never moves... Did it a million times, the log files sometimes says that there is not enough space to perform the task, sometimes it says it could not push it to the FIFO.

One thing that I find weird is that when I try to add a file through HQP library it never recognizes music files.

Any other ideas I could try? That is with both up and down positions of Switch#5...

Decided to ask, Mani is probably very tired from my emails.

[PeterSt]

Hi there Mr without name ...

First things first : Install the Driver properly. I assumed that happened (Unsigned Drivers must be allowed etc.).

Then actually first off, if you select in the NOS1 Control Panel for Device "Stereo Reduced" (and not the default Multi Channel 4.0) *and* you set Sw#5 in the Up position, you have a regular DAC for its interfacing means. Nothing strange, nothing odd. IOW, your first task is to get HQPlayer working in that normal mode, and this is already challenge enough (which I really can't help of course).
And be in Normal OS all the time.
And have the UAC ENabled ! (set that via XXHighEnd, via RightClick on the Stop button).
And disengage that two wire thing in HQPlayer.

Let us know when you've got this working. Or when you can't.

Best regards,
Peter