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Author Topic: JCAT NET Card FEMTO  (Read 2400 times)
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music33
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« on: July 01, 2017, 02:14:04 pm »

Wondering if anyone else has seen this -
http://www.jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jcat-net-card-femto/
and is planning on trying it out in particular with the MachII.
Peter, in your research for the MachII did you look into replacing the network interface on the motherboard for improved sound quality?  Just curious.
thanks, dave
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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2017, 02:53:19 pm »


Hi Dave,

Quote
Peter, in your research for the MachII did you look into replacing the network interface on the motherboard for improved sound quality?  Just curious.

Of course not, as no network activity is going on during playback in the first place (pull the network cable for proof).

Or this one from that web page :

JCAT NET Card FEMTO will also enhance playback when installed in an Audio PC a computer that acts as a USB Audio transport and connects to a USB DAC as long as audio data is sent over network from other PC / NAS / media server or from Streaming services.

The emphasis is mine to better see what I want to make clear :
That text is not lying. But it is also only in order when you set up things like JPlay itself provoces. Could be similar to the HQPlayer Network Audio Adapter aproach. Or any kind of streaming. But the way XXHighEnd is set up, no streaming takes place anywhere (until I explicitly allow it, which could happen in the future with the explicit notice "if you want poor sound ..."). Streaming does not even occur with Tidal and XXHighEnd ...

So it is all baloney but may help when you first set up things the wrong way.

Setting up things the wrong way includes streaming itself. So if you'd only know what all is being done (has been done) in XXHighEnd to eliminate noise from whatever noise-bombardment angle, you'd be completely crazy to even start thinking that streaming will be a good idea; in one blast it eliminates all what has been done against noise, and next makes it 10 times (just a made up figure) worse for starters. And *then* think that a "low noise" network card will help (if it could be in the first place) ? that would really be the most foolish thinking of all.

If not clear, just ask. I'll try to throw some more flames. Happy

Peter
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - September 2017 (2.08)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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music33
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2017, 03:17:48 pm »

Thank you Peter, that makes complete sense.  I sometimes need to be reminded of how you always solve the root problem so expensive band-aids that may not even solve the problem are not needed.  In thinking about it, why would any audiophile person want network activity during playback.  Hmmm, why did they design and build this expensive card...
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PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2017, 03:42:41 pm »

You are welcome, Dave.

The problem is (sort of) that these days we have Roon and people like it. And unlike Tidal, it is a bit tough to let that work and avoid the streaming. It can be done, but it seems too awkward to realize.
So streaming *is* the future. But sure not for the best sound ...

Thanks,
Peter
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - September 2017 (2.08)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 06:35:56 pm »

Quote
If not clear, just ask. I'll try to throw some more flames. Happy


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FROM THE   love this Okayyy


« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:53:15 pm by fmanheck » Logged

XXhighend PC / RAM OS 10586.0 RAM Phasure NOS1a 24/768 USB DAC KS mode -Adaptive/Device buffer -4096/DAC is 32bits 768khz/DAC needs -32bits/Phase Alignment - NO/Format Change - enable/ Decode HDCD ON/Processor Core Appointment 3-5/Player Prio LOW/Thread Prio ABOVE NORMAL/Clock Res 1ms/Xtweaks 64,1,1,0,1/SFS 4.0 60.0 MAX/Include garbage collect ON/Copy to XXdrive by standard ON/Stop Desktop ON/Stop Remaining ON/Stop Wasapi ON/Keep LAN ON/Use remote desktop ON/Persist ON/OSD ON/Coverart show Wallpaper, show back, at attended, show mirror back/ Q1,3,4,5,xQ1-14,1,1,0,1/ Intona Isolator/ Amp: Primare A32/Speakers: Custom built OB system utilizing SB Acoustics Satori Drivers, Quadra Ribbon tweeters lowend augmented by 2 GR Research OB subwoofers
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 01:32:06 pm »


Of course not, as no network activity is going on during playback in the first place (pull the network cable for proof).


Hi Peter,

Not trying to start something here, but even though there is no network activity during playback there is still a LAN connection in some guise otherwise we would have no RDC.  No network activity is not the same as no network connection, and a network connection is an electrical connection to the MusicServer.  I've not really thought about the implications of the network connection as it is currently maintained on the AudioPC...I probably should not jump in here half-cocked!

Come to think about it, I need to think just how you manage to maintain the RDC with no network activity (probably a burst of traffic at the start of each track - hence the ticks we hear).

Cheers,

Anthony

EDIT: I am not saying the FEMTO thingamy has any value to us at all
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Audio PC
Asrock X79 Extreme 4-M/ Xeon E5 2648L 8 Core 1.8GHz 70w TDP running at 1.2GHz with Hyperthreading On [16 cores]/ 16GB Ram / RAM-OS / *All* music files are WAV / Isolated Silverstone USB Card fed by LPS

XXHighEnd 2.05 RAM-OS (W10586 RAM)
Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Buffer 4096 / Q1/3/4/5 = 14/1/1/1 / xQ1 = 1 / Processor Core Appointment Scheme = Core 1-3 / PlayerPrio = Low / ThreadPrio = RealTime / ClockRes = 1ms / Not Switch during playback = off / Xtweaks Balanced Load = 64 / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when idle = 1 / Provide stable power = 1 / Utilize cores always = 1 / Time Stability = Not Stable / Time Performance Index = Not the best / SFS 0.12MB Max 20MB / Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect = on / Start Playback during conversion = off / Do not start playback at all = off / Copy to XX-drive by standard = on / Always clear Proxy before Playback = on / Stop Remaining Desktop Services = on / Stop Remaining Services = on / Stop WASAPI Services = on / Stop W10 Services = off / Keep LAN Services = on / Persist = on / Use Remote Desktop = on/ Custom Upsampling / Minimize OS = on / Peak Extend = off / Unattended

Audio Chain
Silverstone USB3 (isolated) >> Clairixa USB (short) >> Intona >> Clairixa USB >> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4 (4ms) -> 6 way active horn speakers (Single Ended Triodes)
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 03:56:05 pm »

Anthony,

All has its context. If you literally compare what's advertised, then the control PC is controlling the PC playing the audio (never mind the nomenclature for now please). So where's WiFi in that situation ? it is not there.
So we are not going to use WiFi either. What do we do ?
-> We control the Audio PC itself by the same means of keyboard and mouse and monitor as implied. Where is the network connection ? ... if you pull the cable, nowhere. Is it needed ? yes, when you select a next album to play. If you in this situation disengage the RDC services, there is no connection at all during payback. There will be an electrical connection though. And NOW we may think such a network card will help ? ... I don't think so.

Of course you are correct when you use the remote control like we do these days. But you will also know that I onbiously know that just the same. So it is only how matters are proposed and how I like to play with apples and apples. And I did.

Careful or otherwise I'll pull the Bluetooth trick again. Happy (this was before your times I'd say).

Quote
(probably a burst of traffic at the start of each track - hence the ticks we hear).

Whatever you hear, it will be something else. The RDC connection, when engaged, is just always active. But there's only transfer when something needs to transfer, like with Wallpaper active and that changing at a next track. Anyway, whatever it is you hear will also be there when the music is pulled from the Audio PC itself. Try it ... yes - but without a 100% guarantee - haha. This is because the changing of the wallpaper is a super heavy process. Think like a 100,000 registry reads (really so) while otherwise there's totally nothing.

So once again, you are just right. But I felt it was perfectly allowed to say what I said, because of the context combined with the fact that RDC traffic is zero when nothing happens on the monitor. The electrical connection is there though, but as said, nothing is telling me that any super duper connection is going to make a difference. This really is rather the same as so many people thinking that a glass connection is inherently galvanically isolated and thus no noise can come through. This, while the protocol conversion (which is a PC process and an in-DAC electrical process on the other end) only adds piles of noise. And this is audible - for the worse of course.

Cheers,
Peter

Logged

For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - September 2017 (2.08)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 07:11:20 am »

Anthony,

There will be an electrical connection though. And NOW we may think such a network card will help ? ... I don't think so.

Yes, this is basically what I was meaning.  Of course I have no idea if the card would change anything but we do know that adding a medical ethernet isolator can change the sound in some situations (not necessarily ours).  I think Mani (or was it Alain?) had one floating about somewhere, made by Baaske or someone like that.


Careful or otherwise I'll pull the Bluetooth trick again. Happy (this was before your times I'd say).

I don't know what the Bluetooth trick was...


So once again, you are just right. But I felt it was perfectly allowed to say what I said, because of the context combined with the fact that RDC traffic is zero when nothing happens on the monitor. The electrical connection is there though, but as said, nothing is telling me that any super duper connection is going to make a difference. This really is rather the same as so many people thinking that a glass connection is inherently galvanically isolated and thus no noise can come through. This, while the protocol conversion (which is a PC process and an in-DAC electrical process on the other end) only adds piles of noise. And this is audible - for the worse of course.

Cheers,
Peter


No arguments from me that you were right to say what you did; I was not even arguing it at the time.

Cheers,

Anthony
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Audio PC
Asrock X79 Extreme 4-M/ Xeon E5 2648L 8 Core 1.8GHz 70w TDP running at 1.2GHz with Hyperthreading On [16 cores]/ 16GB Ram / RAM-OS / *All* music files are WAV / Isolated Silverstone USB Card fed by LPS

XXHighEnd 2.05 RAM-OS (W10586 RAM)
Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Buffer 4096 / Q1/3/4/5 = 14/1/1/1 / xQ1 = 1 / Processor Core Appointment Scheme = Core 1-3 / PlayerPrio = Low / ThreadPrio = RealTime / ClockRes = 1ms / Not Switch during playback = off / Xtweaks Balanced Load = 64 / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when idle = 1 / Provide stable power = 1 / Utilize cores always = 1 / Time Stability = Not Stable / Time Performance Index = Not the best / SFS 0.12MB Max 20MB / Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect = on / Start Playback during conversion = off / Do not start playback at all = off / Copy to XX-drive by standard = on / Always clear Proxy before Playback = on / Stop Remaining Desktop Services = on / Stop Remaining Services = on / Stop WASAPI Services = on / Stop W10 Services = off / Keep LAN Services = on / Persist = on / Use Remote Desktop = on/ Custom Upsampling / Minimize OS = on / Peak Extend = off / Unattended

Audio Chain
Silverstone USB3 (isolated) >> Clairixa USB (short) >> Intona >> Clairixa USB >> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4 (4ms) -> 6 way active horn speakers (Single Ended Triodes)
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 08:03:58 am »

Careful or otherwise I'll pull the Bluetooth trick again. Happy (this was before your times I'd say).

I don't know what the Bluetooth trick was...

No, not the Bluetooth dongle again... What a PITA that was! (Good sound though  Wink)

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.07 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=0 /  xQ1=1 / Q3,4,5=0 / SFS=1.00 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 1ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Arc Prediction / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
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