MQA decoding issue

[manisandher]

Hey Peter, I'm having a problem decoding MQA. I've only tried a couple of albums from Tidal, and both give the same error (below) just before playback commences.

If I switch off 'decode HDCD + MQA', then everything works fine.

Any ideas?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

I'm afraid you have a decoding issue. See below for how it is supposed to look and mind the "96" icon in the bottom right corner. If you see nothing of this anywhere in your Library Area then on that PC the decoding does not work.
Btw, I take it that you use 2.09 for this (the Tidal-approaching PC !) ? because that *is* required ...

Regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

The issue is identical on my Phasure audio PC too...

I think I've found the issue:

It seems to be a base rate problem (44.1 vs 48). MQA 44.1 rates work fine (see below), however 48 rates don't. The issue seems to stem from my music server. I get the error shown below when preparing streams.

Mani.

[manisandher]

I selected another DAC in my music server, and everything seems to be working OK now.

Thanks.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi again Mani,

I get the error shown below when preparing streams.

Well, that nicely testifies of what I was saying.

I don't think anything works fine because any "96" album should show 96 for base rate and not 48.
Your decoding just does not work and it *has* to work already on the PC where you Prepare things, or otherwise nothing works.
I don't see you responding to my 2.09 remark, so I take it that you don't use that on the "Tidal" PC. Haha.

Notice that it is best for you (at this moment) would be that you always retry all from the start. So throw out that Robert Plant, Search for it again - and that is sufficient to prove that it works or not, because as said, that 96 icon should appear in the Library Area('s Coverart) already.

Peter

[manisandher]

Your decoding just does not work and it *has* to work already on the PC where you Prepare things, or otherwise nothing works.
I don't see you responding to my 2.09 remark, so I take it that you don't use that on the "Tidal" PC. Haha.

I upgraded to 2.09 on the music server ('Tidal' PC) before trying anything.

I deleted and re-prepared the MQA albums. Everything works fine. Thanks.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

OK, thank you for bearing with me !

Regards,
Peter

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

I started to test MQA today and installed 2.09 on my music PC.

I have the same decoding problem with the same error message like above: "Something went wrong with FLAC decoding...".
When I download MQA files nevertheless, all of them are decoded to 48 ones and will not play.
I cannot solve this issue.

Kind regards
Richard

[briefremarks]

Richard,

I had a problem that I was able to fix by making sure the setting for the sound device "Select the sample rate and bit depth when running in shared mode" to be 24/96. Other settings may work.  The default Windows setting of 16/44.1 is a problem, as well as anything below 96.

May not help, but worth trying.

Ramesh

[Rmalits]

Ramesh,

thanks for this info.
The problem probably is located here. But for the Realtec speaker, the sound device on my Microsoft Surface Pro, the max. values are 48/24. Therefore I am still limited to 48kHz.

Is there any idea how to solve that?

Kind regards
Richard

[manisandher]

Richard, I had a similar issue. All I did was stick an old Audioquest Dragonfly that I had lying around into one of the USB ports of my server and select that as the sound device in XX. You may then have to do as Ramesh suggests too (I don't recall having to do this myself though).

Do you have an old 24/96-capable USB DAC hanging around? (It doesn't even have to be connected to an amp or anything.)

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Richard ... or install the NOS1 driver and connect your NOS1(a/G3).
If it is a Windows 10 then you will first need to shut off the Driver Siging (in XXHighEnd's settings).

Quite a useless remark :
On a side note (or not) I myself am unsure about how the "48" setting in the Sound Device can be related. OK, surely you won't be able to play (88.2 or 96) but why the Decoding (or MQA detection at first) would fail on this ...
But hard to try for me just the same.

Peter

[Rmalits]

Hi there,

thanks a lot for all your advices.
For some hours now I tried different DACs and settings for Microsoft Surface 3 Pro with Windows 8.1 running on it.

Now I plugged in my ifi iDSD DAC into the USB port installed the audio driver and finally got it to play my PCM files up to 192/24 with XXHE. The settings for the audio decive in shared mode are set to 192/32.
What's still strange though, when playing in attanded mode, the time counter always shows 00:00, but music plays in ok quality.

But still XXHE doesn't decode MQA higher than 48/24.
I don't know, what to do now to solve this problem. Are there any ideas?

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Richard,

I don't know what you all did or omitted, but notice that once you've got something running, you must throw out all MQA (so also the search results !), research it, prepare it and then retry.

And if that still does not help, try another PC ...
Sadly is it no different and it is not going to change either.

Peter

[PeterSt]

And Richard, mind the "Hires Audio" tags to the (right) side of the MQA logo. If they are not there, the decoder does not work on the PC where you search Tidal. So tell me if you see them ...

Peter

[Rmalits]

Peter,

yes, I always delete everything from the researvh folder before I try it again.

The MQA logo is there incuding sample rate. That's fine.

As long as in the downloaded file the ID-tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE is not higher than 48000 everything works fine. If its higher like 96000 or 192000 the track will be decoded to 48000 and won't play because of this discrepancy.
Only when I take the MQA album id out of the album name, it will play, but with 48000 only.

I will try it with my NOS1-a, but don't know yet where to find the driver for it and how to install it.

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Hi Richard,

I will try it with my NOS1-a, but don't know yet where to find the driver for it and how to install it.

Ah, right, you received all including preconfigured PC of course. Hmm ... maybe all unnecessary hurdles then.

OK, I don't know what is happening.
Just asking to be sure : Do you have XXHighEnd activated on that Surface ?

What bothers me is that your iFi also does not play correctly. So with that as a context, the strange MQA behavior tells me not so much.

What you can do is select an MQA album with Hires Audio tag beside it, activate Logging (restart), press Play (Attended is fine) and attach the latest XX-prefixed log file from that (see in the TemporaryData subfolder).

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Hi Peter,

I found out what MQA is today (dduurrgh) anyway I'm having a problem decoding MQA. I've tried a couple of albums from Tidal, and both give the same error (the same as Mani's) just before playback is due to commences. There is no error message when I download from Tidal on another PC here (Tidal PC). But when I try to play the MQA file on my Stealth it comes up with error message. Also the MQA symbol does not appear in the library area to replace the "flac" symbol and the sample rate indicators do not change to the sample rate shown for the MQA file. The decode HDCD + MQA button is selected (red) in the settings area so should work !!!.

Can you help?

If I switch off 'decode HDCD + MQA', then everything works fine.

Cheers
Paul

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

my Stealth Mach II is used as audio PC only and is not connected to the internet.

My Microsoft Surface 3 Pro with Windows 8.1 on it is used as music PC and since more than half a year to stream from Tidal. Therefore I never used XXHE on the PC to play music until 2 days ago, when I plugged in the ifi and installed a driver for it. I did that only to have the MQA files decoded the right way. The ifi works fine in attended mode up to 192/24. But it does not show the running time of a track though (it always shows 00:00).
I don't understand now why music can be played now up to 192/24, but MQA decoding works up to 48000 only.

As you suggested before, I would like to try it with the NOS1-a, but I have to install a driver for this on my music PC and don't know, how to do that.

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

If I switch off 'decode HDCD + MQA', then everything works fine.

Uhm Paul, ... except for decoding MQA (and HDCD).

Peter

PS: And if the message you receive is the same as Mani's, then the solution is also the same ?

[PeterSt]

Richard,

Your problem can't be that the Decode HDCD/MQA button is inactive (blue) ?

Btw, the driver is on your Stealth in the D: drive D:\Installs\NOS1 (or similar). But it really does not make much sense to me if something like the iFi doesn't move the time cursor. I really can not get what you are doing and/or what is happening. Also not why you would not be able to use the MoBo sound device, as long as it plays 48 for the base (all MoBo devices do this) and let that upsample to 96 (which 96 MQA uses in the end just the same for all which has 48 as the base and which shows 96 as the Hires Audio tag.

Any chance of putting up that log file ?

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

And Richard, eliminate all virus scanners including Bit Defender. This is the most logical explanation for ILLogical things happening.

Counts for everybody.

Peter

[Rmalits]

Peter,
 
the Decode HDCD/MQA button is active (red). Otherwise the MQA logo would not include the bitrate. Everything is working fine with 44100 and 48000 files.

Other users descibed above, that they had to plug in a DAC to get the 88200 and 96000 decoding.

I will switch off the virus scanner, we will see...

thanks a lot and
kind regards
Richard

[Rmalits]

Peter,

I also deactivated the only one virus scanner (Microsoft Defender) and that didn't help.

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Richard,

Is your log file a secret or something ?

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Peter,

I have not spent much time with MQA but so far I have not been able to get it working. I will try again but first I have a question: Mani visited a few weeks ago and brought a couple of MQA files with him on a USB stick. The files work fine on Mani's Stealth but they would not play as MQA files on my Stealth and IIRC I don't think they would play at all not even as flac. We did not have time to investigate further.

Should they have worked?

Paul

[PeterSt]

Hi Paul,

The answer is No. !
I can't elaborate further.

Kind regards,
Peter

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

that's the topic for the MQA decoding issue on my music PC.
Looking it through again I just realized that I didn't email you the log file yet. I apologise and I try to email you one within the next hour.

Kind regards
Richard

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,
I have sent you an email with the log file, containing the MQA download and decoding of the Robert Plant album mentioned in this topic.
The problem is, that it's decoded onto 48/24 instead of 96/24.
Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Hi Richard,

Thank you for the log files, but I don't see much wrong in it (I see explicitly correct things).

that's the topic for the MQA decoding issue on my music PC.

This though would literally be incorrect because we have a Music Server PC and an Audio PC (the latter would be your Stealth).
So decoding is performed on the Audio PC and the Music Server PC only takes care of the Hires Audio Logo (like the "96" from the Plant album). Say that it sticks it on.
This summarized, I may wonder from which PC the log file you sent me, comes from.
Also, show me you Plant album because I want to see that logo (it does not matter from which PC you grab the coverart file, but for yourself it is best when you first see it in the Library Area so if you see the "96" logo, you can be assured the coverart file must be in there somewhere.
I think it is the least ambiguous when you only look at your Music Server PC for it (your Surface, I think).

Best regards,
Peter

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

the log file I sent you yesterday is from my music server PC. It's a Microsoft Surface 3 Pro. That's the one which has access to internet and Tidal. My audio PC (Stelath Mach II) has no access.
The cover art of this album is correct. It contains the "MQA 96", as it is shown in the posts above. But the the flac files are created for 48KHz only.
As I read above, other users had similar experiences until they pluged in an appropriate highres DAC into the USB port of their music server PC. I tried that too a few month ago wihout any success.

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Hi Richard,

As I read above, other users had similar experiences until they pluged in an appropriate highres DAC into the USB port of their music server PC.

With respect (for those users), or this is BS to begin with, or it is 100% logical that one can only play Hires when an appropriate Hires DAC is used. And this is not related at all to what you see in the left pane for Input and Output sampling rate, unless in settings you told that the DAC (whatever one) only can do 48KHz (input) max (DAC Needs setting).

But the the flac files are created for 48KHz only.

That is not how it works;
There are no FLAC files created as such. They are always the same, disregarding whether they can be decoded or not. Whether they can be decoded depends on whether the decoding trial as such (which is what happens on your Tidal connected PC at observing the track on Tidal itself) succeeds. Your proof of this latter is the "96" little logo. So that succeeds.

the log file I sent you yesterday is from my music server PC.

That's what I was afraid of. But also, that is a good thing to show and prove to yourself, because it means that you obtained a version of the album which a. is MQA encoded and b. was able to decode. This is what I saw in the log file and thus can say : all looking fine. However :

What you seem to combine with that is that it *thus* also is fine on the Audio PC. Well, although for most it is fine on that PC and things fail (if they do) on the Music Server PC), with you it is the other way around. And ... it probably is because you don't think of the situation as such and thus also don't try to solve it from that angle. Also : combine this with you sending a log file and sort of in the same sentence tell that HDCD/MQA decoding is On. On what PC then ??
Simplest example of why it goes wrong on the Audio PC : don't have the XXHighEnd version in there which is even cabable of the decoding. Or, have switched off that HDCD/MQA decoding in there. Or ... whatever is happening on the Audio PC on its own, or should happen there but does not.

I am not saying that it is you explicitly doing something wrong, but thinking correctly about it is quite crucial. So ... maybe this helps you on some right track ?
I hope we can solve this !

Peter

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

thx a lot for your detailed explanations!

On both PCs I have got the latest XXHE version installed. That's for sure.

Everything works perfectly for MQA 44 and MQA 48 since I have installed the latest releases. I am happy with the SQ of these MQA albums.
When I look into the ID-tags of these flac files, I can see that the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE (44100 or 48000) corresponds with the audio property "sample rate", which is always the same for these wELL working MQA tracks.

When I download a MQA96 album, like the Robert Plant album in the emailed log file, with my audio PC, it is like this:
the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE has the value 96000, what seems to be correct. But the sample rate of these flac files is 48KHz only. It should be 96KHz too, as I believe.
I cannot play these files with my audio PC.

kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

Hey Richard,

I cannot play these files with my audio PC.

What does this mean ? Please always try to qualify the hapening and envision what I must do with it without that qualification. I say it more often : nothing goes without message, so ... if it would for real I need the explicit remark like "just nothing happens". So what is literally going on in this case ?

When I look into the ID-tags of these flac files, I can see that the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE (44100 or 48000) corresponds with the audio property "sample rate", which is always the same for these wELL working MQA tracks.

No, no, triple NO.
Nothings is working well when one of the others does not "work" at all (but see below). You just can't know by this statement alone, which besides, is ILLEGAL. So mind you, it is your own thought idea of how things should work. You never read those for me. Never adhere your own ideas about matters, or you will end up nowhere with it, OK ? Now :

the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE has the value 96000, what seems to be correct. But the sample rate of these flac files is 48KHz only. It should be 96KHz too, as I believe.

Why ?? Because I explicitly told you that nothing is decoded in the file you obtained and can observe on your NAS etc., or on your Audio PC for that matter ?
So all you just did is give yourself an argument to so-called "know" that it does not work. You just did this two times :

1. When you see a 44.1 or 48 file you are sure it is OK (but PeterSt tells you that you can not tell by that means);
2. When you see a 96 file (btw, also by your own means) you glance at a 48 number elsewhere, and state it thus does not work.

Both observations are explicitly wrong.

This time I am not going to explain further, but leave it to you to come up with other observations which testify that it does not work. I have seen nothing so far (but I did not read back into the whole topic). So your hint is that you don't have proof so far, while for 100% sure and the most clear, you can see whether it works or not. Never try to listen whether it does. Find all the Release Notes about it. OK ?

And please be aware of the fact that I am not saying at all that it works for you. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I just can't tell (at all) by your means of expressing about it.

Now let's get it to work ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

Maybe something else for hopefully better understanding :

When I look into the ID-tags of these flac files

And who made these files ?
I can assure you that in the situations I make the files myself there will be no such tag anywhere. So, some stupid softare put that in (in this cace on the Tidal side) and really nothing is using it. It is thus redundant data BUT you found it and use it (against yourself or something, haha).

Peter

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter and all others concerned,

I also have a question regarding direct Tidal MQA playback vs. replay of the resulting digital files in the "streams" subfolder of the same downloaded album.

When I pasted the URL from Tidal of a MQA96 album for instance, and I play it unattended. XXHE takes longer than usual to read all the tracks understandably. Then it played with both input and output sample rate at 96000, MQA96 on cover art, MQA logo showing at lower center area, and my iFi DAC2 indicating 96000 stream. But when I try to play the downloaded files in "streams" subfolder, it plays with input and output sample rate at 48000, MQA96 on cover art, FLAC logo at lower center area and iFi DAC2 showing 48000 stream.

My question is that if it is possible to replay the downloaded files as MQA 96 again? I apologize if it has been addressed in the thread but I read the whole thing and still was not able to arrive at a solution.

[hudesigns]

Please disregard my post above. After spending more time with 2.09 with Tidal MQA, all my issues are non existent. When I drag Streams folder to playlist box, all tracks are played in original MQA form in correct sample rate upto 96000. Not an issue.

But I do have a minor question regarding preparing streams. When I select an album to be prepared, only one of the tracks in album will be prepared. How to prepare the whole album? My current workaround is to play whole album in unattended mode. Once it read all tracks are read by XXHE, they are all prepared even without playing through all tracks in album.

Also is there a way to resume a partially prepared alubum other than deleting everything and starting afresh?

[PeterSt]

Also is there a way to resume a partially prepared alubum other than deleting everything and starting afresh?

Hi,

I assume you want this because of that other issue :

When I select an album to be prepared, only one of the tracks in album will be prepared.

... and when this is solved you won't need to Prepare a remainder, right ? OK :

I actually am not sure what you mean. There is no way to Prepare an album partly only, unless you just play one track of it in Attended Mode. But well, let's say that you may be doing something which is not expected by me. So what I do myself :

- Search for the album in Tidal;
- Prepare it;
- Play it now or later.

There's no way that you will end up with a halfly Prepared album unless something goes wrong during the process. And then still :
When the Prepare stage is interrupted (which is similar to Prepare one track only) then if you'd Prepare it the next time in full, it will Prepare the remainder. Mind you, this is all done in the "TT" structure (see Search button encryption) amd when done, Move that to the Tidal structure (again see Search Button). Thus, it is *not* the intention that you apply this Move when you have Prepared one (or a few) tracks only. I am not sure what would happen, but I am quite sure unexpected things will happen just because I did not make it to behave like that.

I think that there's one means to Prepare an album only partly : Play a track of it while the album was not prepated explicitly. So be sure you understand where that Explicit Prepare sits, look below (Library Area is active there).
You can still do that after you have played on track before explicit Prepare, but don't move to the Tidal structure first.

Let me know if you understand anything of this post because I feel we may not be talking about the same things. This is also related to this :

My current workaround is to play whole album in unattended mode. Once it read all tracks are read by XXHE, they are all prepared even without playing through all tracks in album.

I understand that. But what happens in that case is that you play the tracks subsequently (but in one go) which causes XXHighEnd to subsequently decode them. This wasn't even explicitly made like/for that but I can imagine it works (but maybe things go wrong when you don't play the whole album like this, and the next time it finds an inconsistent situation and causes you to do all over in order to get it right.
So the more I think about it, the more I feel that you do not use the option I show below. And notice that you can do a 100 at the same time, if you want (just select more and then perform the Prepare function).

Lastly do notice that this Preparing is unrelated to the MQA decoding. That always happens in real time; ot per track when paying Attendedly, or for the whole album in parallel when you use Unattended and per as many in parallel as you have processor cores.

I think what you imply by your means of playback (which starts with dragging in the UNPrepared tracks) is that per track the track will be Prepared and MQA Decoded after each other and that again in parallel when done in Unattended Mode.
No, I certainly did not make that, but I can imagine that it works (to some degree).



Regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter,
You are great. Once you mentioned TT vs Tidal structures, I know immediately where was my problem. I had not been clear at all about the two's functions. I will train myself in using the two structures correctly tonight. Yes I did notice the realtime MQA decoding when some notebook like app runs for each track being decoded. Amazing stuff. Well-recorded MQA tracks are very very good -- boldly and finely silhouetted yet not without subtle soft details in spacious dimentions.
Thanks!

[hudesigns]

Peter,
I just wonder that once a MQA capable DAC is used via USB, will MQA track continue to undergo second stage "unfolding" before it becomes analog signal?

[PeterSt]

ZH,

I just wonder that once a MQA capable DAC is used via USB, will MQA track continue to undergo second stage "unfolding" before it becomes analog signal?

a. When played via XXHighEnd, no filtering is allowed and also volume must be at -0dBFS. Then it will work.

b. It is generally regarded that any second or more unfold is an upsampling step per means of "Meridian" (MQA) filtering.

Ad b.
If you like that filtering (which is told to adapt to your DAC), then OK. But if you don't like it - for example because you like Arc Prediction better - then your MQA DAC is a waste.
Chances are small that you coincidentally like the MQA upsampling/filtering but theoretically these chances are as small as you like XXHighEnd's upsampling/filtering.
Both are very different though. The money involved could be a bit different. Haha.
And I try to make the best of it (but I may not be alone on that one).

Kind regards,
Peter

PS: Ask as much as you like.

[hudesigns]

Very goog information. Haha, -0dBFS! Will do.
Most thankfully,
ZH

[hudesigns]

I am also weary of upsampling in general. It's ultra smoothness sometimes reminds of "photoshopping", just a bit too uniformed. I like materials with some grit. ZH

[PeterSt]

When I look into the ID-tags of these flac files, I can see that the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE (44100 or 48000) corresponds with the audio property "sample rate", which is always the same for these wELL working MQA tracks.

When I download a MQA96 album, like the Robert Plant album in the emailed log file, with my audio PC, it is like this:
the tag ORIGINALSAMPLERATE has the value 96000, what seems to be correct. But the sample rate of these flac files is 48KHz only. It should be 96KHz too, as I believe.

So Richard, ...

You never read those for me. Never adhere your own ideas about matters, or you will end up nowhere with it, OK ?

Apart from the "for me" which should read "from me" (apologies for this confusing line of text because of that), I tried to help you by means of now explicitly making what you thought could be observed in the first place.

So what actually happened is that you gave me the very good idea that no decoder is required to observe the Native (in-MQA) Sampling Rate, which finally avoids all the hassle about the Music Server PC seeing something different from the Audio PC just because on either of both the decoding does not work. So from of 2.10 it will be like this :

- The Hires Audio logo will emerge based on what the ORIGINALSAPLERATE tag in the FLAC file tells us (thus exactly how you looked yourself);

- The actual MQA Decoding will take place during Playback.

Let's try to keep in mind that the MQA Decoding during Playback is depending on two major data parts :
1. The HiRes Audio logo must be present on the Coverart (when no Coverart is present or (made) visible it's an internal thing, but this is rare anyway);
2. The PC where the Playback happens must be able to Decode MQA (and for some PC's this can be a pain and virtually unsolvable unless Windows is freshly installed (not upgraded !)).

Although not easy to see, the change is major. Why and how ?
Well, because the initial enumeration of the MQA albums is not depending on the MQA Decoding any more (it was in 2.09) only one thing can fail from of 2.10 : the decoding suring Playback. This means that we van be 100% guaranteed that if Playback fails to decode MQA, it is the Playback PC not being able to Decode MQA and nothing else.

How to check this unambiguously ? Most easy description (leaving out more possibilities) :
-> Find an album with HiRes Audio logo of 96, take care that your DAC can take 24/96 for input at least, play the file and observe that after decoding - hence when playback commences for real - the input to output in XXHighEnd shows 96000 - 96000 with the little fx button (sits in between inut and output bit rate) activated and the sampling rate slider (sits in between input and output sampling rate) at 2x.

Additionally I could say that each track which has been played once (briefly) or each album which has been Prepared explicitly, will from then on show the input and output as should even without playback. But better don't pay too much attention to this because it may confuse only.

What *is* important further, is that when you have proven that the 96 decodes, any 88.2 or 48 or 192 (native output is 96 max for real anyway) or whatever, will decode too.
It will NEVER happen that a 44.1 or 48 decodes, while 96 etc. does not (which could be your easy mistake to make).

Btw, I'd say that in all cases the MQA logo at the bottom (above the [ G ] button) will testify of MQA decoding. No MQA decoding means that the MQA logo (including green or blue indicator) will not show.

After some consensus (or earlier ) I will try to put this in a Tutorial (in the Tutorials section) as well.

Best regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter,

Loving MQA playback! I am using 2.09 and all MQA functions seem to be working as designed. The downloaded MQA48 album gets a MQA48 logo on cover art and plays as 48-->48. And likewise MQA96, gets MQA96 logo and plays as 96-->96; MQA192, MQA192 logo, plays as 96-->96. everything is beautiful.

My question is that under the proposed 2.10, are we going see MQA192 logos for MQA192 albums anymore, which is important to me? Because when I playback a MQA192 album, I sometimes use 96-->192 to feed to the DAC and thought I liked the result which is slightly closer to neutral and less edgy. I know it's upsampling but with certain MQA192 albums, it sounds better to my ear.

[PeterSt]

Hello ZH,

Nothing will change on the logos themselves. So yes, if the file is "natively" 192, the 192 logo will show as always.

Unless I messed up of course.

Kind regards and thank you !
Peter

[hudesigns]

a. When played via XXHighEnd, no filtering is allowed and also volume must be at -0dBFS. Then it will work.

Hi Peter,
Did I understand correctly that for MQA playback, XXHE's volume should be set at -0dB? Anything changed in 2.10?

The reason this is important to me is that I'm considering taking preamp out of my audio chain and let XXHE audio PC directly output to amp.

Currently I set volume fixed at -0dB in XXHE and use preamp to control playback volume. BTW, what's dBFS stands for? I presume it means same thing.

Best,
Zheng

[PeterSt]

Hi Zheng,

If i was you who asked the question to which the text you quoted was the answer, than you asked about an MQA DAC and let that decode. So only then the -0dBFS (-0dB relative to Full Scale) is required. And if yuo then don't have a pre-amp or other attebuation means behind it (or in the DAC) you are out of luck.

XXHighEnd's MQA decoding works reardless.

Regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

If i was you who asked the question to which the text you quoted was the answer, than you asked about an MQA DAC and let that decode. So only then the -0dBFS (-0dB relative to Full Scale) is required.

Peter,
Finally I got what you meant! Duh, I feel a bit foolish...
Thanks, as always,
Zheng

[PeterSt]

I feel a bit foolish...

Not necessary !

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

A tutorial on MQA related settings in the Tidal Stream preparation PC & the playback Audio PC, would really help in getting it right.

As I see it, going through this topic, most forum members are running into more or less the same issues, including me.

At your convenience.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

That is appreciated. But most of what's in this topic has been eliminated via XXHighEnd 2.10, so ...

Once you are confident with Tidal, I don't see the problem anywhere any more.

And to be sure : how people may not understand how their MQA DAC works or how it should be addressed so it decodes MQA, well, this is "any player" related for the very same.
But blame MQA for that.

Anyway and summarized - there is no MQA decoding issue remaining. This topic is obsolete regarding that ...
This won't prevent you or anyone having similar problems, but it can't be related to how it's obtained from Tidal any more.
OK ?

Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Finally I got what you meant!

Zheng, my previous post made me think of one other prerequisite (maybe I already told it somewhere) :

In XXHighEnd's settings the "Decode HDCD/MQA" field must be inactive in order to let the MQA DAC decode MQA.
So without that setting, the MQA DAC will not recognize MQA because it already isn't MQA any more (it has become normal WAV which of course sprung from MQA material)

Regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

In XXHighEnd's settings the "Decode HDCD/MQA" field must be inactive in order to let the MQA DAC decode MQA.
So without that setting, the MQA DAC will not recognize MQA because it already isn't MQA any more (it has become normal WAV which of course sprung from MQA material)

Thanks, Peter,
Always learning something from you! This makes total sense to me. I don't have a MQA DAC yet but it's good to know once I have one. I do have some other MQA decoding related questions but I'll post separately.
Best,
Zheng

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Just to summarise the prerequisites For MQA playing back correctly on the Audio PC:

It is assumed that the XXHE version is 2.10 & the stream has been correctly prepared.

1) The “allow MQA/HDCD to decode” in settings is active.
2) No filtering in XXHE is allowed.
3) Volume is set to 0dB.
4) Upsampling is not allowed.
5) Norm volume is inactive.

Anything missing?

Just one question; how do we attenuate the volume if no preamp is in the circuit.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

Most of it is wrong. Derived from your list, this is it :

0. The “allow MQA/HDCD to decode” in settings is active.

Hmm, can;t find more.

hudesigns (Zheng) has been confusing you (and maybe a few others as well) with suggesting he had an MQA DAC. Your list counts for that and then requires more like :

1. The “allow MQA/HDCD to decode” in settings is INactive.

So let's skip the MQA DAC. I don't think you would want that anyway.

Kind regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Ok so the “Allow MQA/HDCD to decode” is to be INactive.

How do I attenuate the volume if there is no preamp in the circuit?

[PeterSt]

Oh boy ...

All you need to do is set Decode HDCD/MQA to active.

Learn that by heart, OK ?
haha

Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I have the hang of Tidal for non MQA. Works very smoothly.

The problem with MQA, I think, is the decoding during playback.

The MQA stream seems to be prepared correctly, the coverart shows the MQA 96 icon.

During playback above [G] the MQA logo is not visible (shows FLAC). Also the sampling rate at input shows 48 instead of 96.

MQA/HDCD decoding is active.

I have attached a picture of the same.

Need your guidance.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

Now we're getting somewhere ...
Sort of.

It looks like you have executed everything well and also that you understand, no matter how "blind" you must be because it doesn't work. Moral : not your fault. But now what ...

Look below.
That is mine. Freshly searched for and Prepared. Also Volume Normalized and even still in the Intermediate structure, just like yours. Same version of the album. Both XXHighEnd 2.10.
Same XXHighEnd PC and same OS software if all is right.
Still mine works and yours does not.

But watch the Normalized Volume.
For this 100% the same version this is not possible. So probably your Preparation has been done differently than mine. So can you now please do this :

- Throw out the album again (via XXHighEnd and the Library Area (RightClick - Original Files ...).
- Double Click in the Search field at the bottom so all is refreshed.
- Quit XXHighEnd. Restart it.
- Research for the album.
- Prepare it.
- Volume Normalize it.
- Play track 01.

If you performed the about literally the same but still see that Volume so much higher (see your -13.5 vs. my -21) then at least I won't understand. But if you see the same now (and it works meanwhile) then you must try to tell me how you provoked the previous situation which apperantly let things go wrong. Could be playing one track without explicit Preparation ...

Let me know and regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Look below.
That is mine. Freshly searched for and Prepared. Also Volume Normalized and even still in the Intermediate structure, just like yours. Same version of the album. Both XXHighEnd 2.10.
Same XXHighEnd PC and same OS software if all is right.
Still mine works and yours does not.

Hi Peter,

Before I do what you asked, I wanted to point out that the image I sent you was from the Audio PC, not the Music Server laptop (where I prepare the streams). Secondly I had already moved the prepared stream to the Streaming folder. I do have XXHE 2.10 in the Music Server too. Thirdly I started playback from the Audio PC via streaming folder.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

I wanted to point out that the image I sent you was from the Audio PC, not the Music Server laptop (where I prepare the streams). Secondly I had already moved the prepared stream to the Streaming folder.

Arvind, OK. What I tested tells only that there is no difference between playing from the Intermediate structure vs playing from the Streams structure. So never mind that part. Best though is for now to do exactly what I said because I just tested that path over here. So we should be able to end up with the same result when we both do the same.

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Attached is the image (3) from the Music Server during playback of one track. Vol Norm remains same as -13.5dB. However a window pops up.

This is with fresh prepared stream.

MQA/HDCD decoding is active.

Attached is an image (4) of the Audio PC, after moving the stream to the Streaming folder & playing back from the Audio PC. However this time in the taskbar i saw a window mentioning 2.xx\QA2.dll but then it disappeared very quickly & playback started.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

Attached is the image (3) from the Music Server during playback of one track.

We're in a loop now and we already talked through that no playback is required (nor often possible) on the Music Server.

So most probably this is how it's done that things get arranged for wrongly (so to speak).

Please do all again but now with the notice :
- Prepare is ONLY to be done on the Music Server PC.
- Audio Playback is ONLY to be done on the Audio PC.

OK ?

Peter

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter and Arvind,
I don't want to be rude but this happened to me few times - a seemingly well prepared MQA album is played back at 48kHz as Flac. But everytime I resolved the issue simply by rebooting the audio PC (right-click "Stop" and select "Reboot"). For some reason it has stopped occurring now.
Best,
Zheng

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Unfortunately the same status again. Image is attached which tells the whole story.

Thanks Zheng, will try that too after Peter looks at this.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hello Arvind,

Image is attached which tells the whole story.

Yes, that you now have one track in there which is not what I showed. So again it looks like Preparation for one track only ... (looks, not guaranteed at all).

You know about RightClick on the Library Item (in the Music Server PC !) - Streams - Prepare Streams, do you ? (see below screenshot).

Otherwise please don't hesitate to do what Zheng proposes. I don't know anything about it, but who knows ...

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

No Peter I prepared the entire album. I just played one track & removed the rest from the playlist.

Yes preparing streams is the same way as you mentioned. Nothing different between MQA & non MQA.

Rebooting doesn’t help either.

[PeterSt]

All right Arvind, then I am at a loss what is going on with your Audio PC.

Can you imagine anything not being "original" from when you received it at first ? I mean, you can have been swapping RAM-OS Disks, for example.
So with all your efforts as of now, I am in a stage of "this can not be".

Hmm ... What if your first MQA-Decode attempt requires Normal OS ? ... If that is so then it resembles a kind of what Zheng experienced (I did not witness that - he just told about it today afaik).

Btw, there's logging about this too. So if you engage that and press Play (can just be Attended) and grab the XX log file of that and attach it to a post here, I may be able to at least prove that your decoding does not work.
But please try Normal OS first because when it requires some install I am not aware of, then it's that.

Sorry for your troubles !
Peter

[hudesigns]

I will report here once I get one of these glitches. I don't remember the reboot requires a trip to Normal OS state and back. Just want to be of some help. 
ZH

[PeterSt]

I will report here once I get one of these glitches. I don't remember the reboot requires a trip to Normal OS state and back. Just want to be of some help. 

Yes, and this is VERY much appreciated !!
Thank you Zheng,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Attached is an image of a window popping up in the taskbar as soon as I hit play. Also attached is the XX log files.

Normal OS is of no help either.

And nothing changed in my Audio PC. Neither swapping of the RAM-OS Disk.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Arvind - that popup is fine and not related (well, it is good that it is there).

How was that again with your NAS and Coverart not showing (I really already forgot). Can't this be a similar issue ?
So notice that you can't test by moving around the data (structure etc.). You could, however, change the Intermediate File Folder as well as the Tidal Folder to something which is not-NAS.

Remember, the MQA determination which previously (2.09) happend per MQA decoding itself on the Music Server PC, now changes to looking in the FLAC header ...

The MQA decoding just seems to be OK (log file). But the "detection" as per FLAC header seems not ... (I am not really experienced in debugging that, as it is brand new).

Btw, I call it a day now. You should too.
Best regards,
Peter

[arvind]

It can't be the same issue as coverart on NAS as in this case, I have Tidal database on a HDD.

[PeterSt]

[hudesigns]

This may not be relevant at all. But I checked my Tidal related operations: Tidal is installed in music PC with all related folders in local HDD (local to music PC). All Tidal stream preparations are formed locally and all downloading, preparing and moving are performed one album by one album. My audio PC accesses all Tidal files from music PC via LAN. So in a sense my audio PC also serves a NAS.
ZH

[PeterSt]

Thank you Zheng. And might it be important, I myself have it that way too.

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Have you been able to figure out what could be going wrong? I tried booting into Base OS too but that doesn’t work either.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

I am out of ideas (already was). What remains is Teamviewer ...

Just give me access to your Music Server PC (the one which is used for Tidal *and* which has access to your Stealth (remote control) and I should be able to try a few things from there. This already was my idea 24 hour ago, but yesterday I managed to not find the time for it.

See you in email ...

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Sure will set it up in about 3 to 4 hrs, once I’m back home & will email you. Thanks.

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter,
Today I downloaded iFi newly release firmware 5.3 that enables MQA decoding upto 384kHz sources. But to my disappointment that I was not able to decode 192 MQA albums to its original sample rate. the best I could do via XXHE is upto 48kHz with MQA decoding off.

If I play directly from Tidal with MQA passthrough on, I got upto 48kHz and with passthrough off, upto 96kHz

Now I searched iFi company troubleshooting forum and found this answer from iFi technician:

Question: On TIDAL I play an MQA 192KHz file but it displays another sampling rate?

Answer: Typicall those albums are encoded as 48kHz MQA file. Meaning Tidal will perform the decoding to a 96kHz audio stream with the MQA renderer handling the further decoding which this has nothing to do with our products, this is how MQA & Tidal works.

To test that the actual audio stream in TIDAL is 48KHz please select "MQA passthrough", it is 96k if TIDAL decodes MQA, it is 48k on MQA pass-through.

Question: But I thought the file was 192KHz remastered?

Answer: Yes, meaning it was MQA encoded from a 192KHz remaster.

Our MQA implementation handles up to 384KHz MQA sources correctly according to MQA specifications.

I think I started to understand what Tidal is doing with MQA right now... I just want to get your opinion first. In the meantime I want to find a true 192 or up MQA encoded file to see if the iFi tech is not lying!

Best,
Zheng

[hudesigns]

Peter,
I did download a MQA encoded track "MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia" from 2L but XXHE played it as 44.1 FLAC with either mqa decoding on or off. And the iFi MQA enabled DAC processes it as 44.1

I always set the volume at 0.0 to be bit-perfect.

ZH

[PeterSt]

I think I started to understand what Tidal is doing with MQA right now...

Haha, or maybe not ...

I see nothing wrong so far.
The file you'll receive from Tidal is 24/44.1 or 24/48. This is just how it should be. This is also how XXHighEnd should output it, so your MQA DAC can start from the beginning which is the decoding (AKA first unfold). From there it becomes 24/88.2 or 24/96 and assumed the Rendering part in your MQA DAC is also active, it will become 24/176.4 or 24/192 if the file was that natively.

Notice that files can be natively 44.1 or 48 or 88.2 or 96 ( or 352.8 ).

Understand a little ? Does it help ?
Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Sure will set it up in about 3 to 4 hrs, once I’m back home & will email you. Thanks.

Solved;
There was a bit of code left behind that eventually required the decoding on the Music Server PC after all.

In the download topic for 2.10 there's now (soon) a 2.10a patch at the very bottom. This will be required on the Music Server PC (only) and only for those who can/could not get the decoding going on the Music Server PC to begin with.
Watch out : The MQA albums of concern must be re-prepared in full for this to work. Thus, delete their folder structure, re-search them and Prepare them.

To be clear, the exhibit without 2.10a for some :
- Albums are Prepared on the Music Server PC (this PC accessing Tidal);
- On the Audio PC now MQA Decoding does not work, while the Audio PC is "modern" as such and contains a fresh install of Windows (say that W10 is always sufficiently modern).

The problem without 2.10a is that the Music Server PC (often running an older or upgraded Windows version) requires MQA decoding, while this is impossible. 2.10a solves this.

Arvind, thank you for holding on !
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

The Eagles MQA 192 album that you prepared after upgrading to 2.10a still has 2 problems:

1) The input sampling rate shows 96 even though the cover art shows MQA 192.
2) Above [G] the FLAC logo shows.

I prepared another MQA96 album. Input sampling rate shows 96, however above [G] it still shows FLAC.

Best regards,

Arvind

[arvind]

attached are the images of both albums.

[PeterSt]

Arvind,

But it plays (at the right speed) ?

Peter

[arvind]

Oh yes it plays. Right speed too.

[PeterSt]

OK, thanks.
Working on it ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

Arvind - I found that problem. There will be a 2.10c soon for this.

The decoding is just fine, only that logo not.

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

2.10c has been uploaded to the 2.10 topic.

This is only needed for the Audio PC. Unless you are used to play (MQA) music on the Music Server PC; then it is for that one (too).

Peter

[PeterSt]

I did download a MQA encoded track "MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia" from 2L but XXHE played it as 44.1 FLAC with either mqa decoding on or off. And the iFi MQA enabled DAC processes it as 44.1

Dear Zheng,

Can you please re-apply all of your testing with 2.10c ?
Quite a lot of things were not correct with the "FLAC header determination" (as seen from Arvind's installation).

Regards,
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

All working well with 2.10c upto MQA 96, however with MQA 192, I am still getting input sampling rate 96. This is even with new prepared streams. Playback of the MQA 192 streams is ok, but input shows 96.

Best regards,

Arvind

[hudesigns]

Peter,
Thanks! I'll do ASAP.
ZH

[hudesigns]

2.10c has been uploaded to the 2.10 topic.
This is only needed for the Audio PC. Unless you are used to play (MQA) music on the Music Server PC; then it is for that one (too).

Hi Peter,
I just replaced XXHighEnd.exe with the new version 2.10c in audio PC. It seems solid without any issue so far. Next I am going to replace it in music PC too. But I need to ask a question. In the above quote you mentioned audio PC in particular but at the download area where you did not mention audio PC at all. Just wondering.

Also on the MQA hardware decoding front, after consultation with an iFi tech I was able to let my MQA enabled (recent firmware 5.3 update) iFi iDac2 to recognize MQA stream but only upto 96kHz!

Second while playing in XXHE with MQA decoding OFF, I was not able to let the same DAC to recognize its MQA stream so it remains at 48kHz mostly with a few at 44.1

Now you just mentioned that with 2.10c, you resolved some FLAC headings issue, which makes me think that if I re-download some Tidal MQA albums I might see something different. So I am going to update right now in my Music PC and will report back tomorrow.

Zheng

[PeterSt]

2.10c has been uploaded to the 2.10 topic.
This is only needed for the Audio PC. Unless you are used to play (MQA) music on the Music Server PC; then it is for that one (too).

Hi Peter,
I just replaced XXHighEnd.exe with the new version 2.10c in audio PC. It seems solid without any issue so far. Next I am going to replace it in music PC too. But I need to ask a question. In the above quote you mentioned audio PC in particular but at the download area where you did not mention audio PC at all. Just wondering.

Hi Zheng, yes, I have been struggling with that text a bit. I now changed it again.
It went wrong when a 2.10a which was in there at first, was changed into 2.10c.
Thank you for being corrective !

Peter

[PeterSt]

All working well with 2.10c upto MQA 96, however with MQA 192, I am still getting input sampling rate 96. This is even with new prepared streams. Playback of the MQA 192 streams is ok, but input shows 96.

Hi Arvind,

The input to XXHighEnd - as a software player - is correct. This is always the Native Sampling Rate as how it is denoted in the file itself. You can see it like this : the file as how it comes from Tidal first needs to be decoded, which means "expand" it to the first "unfold", if present (native 44.1 and 48 files also exist and they don't have a 1st "unfold" stage). When that 1st "unfold" has been done, it is given to the player (XXHighEnd) which thus sees 88.2 or 96 (and that XXHighEnd is applying that decode step herself may be confusing but say that it happens right in front of XXHighEnd).

Software can never "unfold" more than to 88.2/96, which is why you never will see a higher input to XXHighEnd.

What I noticed in your system is that you set the upsampling to 1x. Thus now e.g. 96 stays that (I think you set it to 2x but with the fx button active but for 88.2 and 96 it comes down to the same - you won't upsample to 192 and beyond.
I would set 16x there, as usual (this is up to you of course, and I am only telling to ensure that you understand the process).

If we regard the 2nd and 3rd "unfold" to be upsampling steps anyway for MQA (and I do) then you now do this yourself. One thing : I did not build a formal "till there and no further" mechanism, or IOW, there is no such thing as allowing you to upsample to the "native" Sampling Rate as MQA depicts it (in the file). You can only set 2x, 4x, 8x or 16x. Well, you just set there what you were used to (and I'd say this is 16x).

Try to keep in mind : while 2nd "unfold" and beyond is an upsampling step anyway in an MQA DAC, you now apply that upsampling step yourself with the difference that you use your own filters (within limits of course). Would you not have a NOS1 DAC but an iFi etc., then in such a DAC filtering is applied which you can also overrule by XXHighEnd to some extent. This is not related to MQA at all and always has been so.
Today though, people may get easily confused by their MQA capable DAC (like Zheng's iFi now), that seemingly working very differently. But all such a DAC does is enable a 1st "unfold" which can be done in software just the same (100% the same) and next apply filters which also can be done in software (but with different filters like always) for further upsampling. It is this latter which you have virtually switched off, by setting 2x only.

For Zheng : IIRC he does not upsample/filter in the first place. So he has set 1x (if all is right). This is everyone's good right and in fact you tell your DAC to take care of the filtering all the way (and would one have a NOS DAC then NOS is used as ever back intended ("filterless")). However, when Zheng sustains this 1x setting (already required to decode MQA by his MQA capable DAC) he is comparing apples with orangeswhen he would compare MQA done by XXHighEnd v.w. MQA done by his MQA capable DAC. Why ? because with 1x in XXHighEnd always, he will compare the iFi filters outside of MQA (no MQA file playing) with the filters within MQA (MQA file playing). He now actually compares two different DACs. Would Zheng upsample 4x because his native iFi can do that for non-MQA files (plays 192 (or can it do 384 ?)) and set to 1x to MQA files, he will compare XXHighEnd filtering with MQA filtering. BUT, would he play MQA through XXHighEnd and upsample 4x he would compare MQA playback through XXHighEnd with MQA playback through the iFi. This latter sounds the best apples and apples to me (I know, it still isn't).

Btw, look at the title of this topic. Funney eh ?
So it is all stupid stuff which is almost impossible to uderstand. A decoding problem ...

Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

Understood it. Even before I read your post, I had set the fx to x16. So all seems ok for now.

Thank you very much for your support.

Best regards,

Arvind

[hudesigns]

Peter,
I did some testings and the findings might be of interest to you. The iFi DAC2 with MQA firmware update detects MQA streams from XXHE ONLY in the following conditions:

XXHE settings:
Volume +0dB
fx=OFF (ON if you leave it at 1x)
upsample=1x (input-output, 96-96)
MQA decoding in settings=ON
MQA logo showing on bottom of window while playing

Only the Tidal MQA albums with logo sticker marked as 192, 176, 96, 88.

ONLY all above conditions are met, iFi iDAC2 will detect it as a MQA stream (with specific indication light). But it DOES NOT perform further unfolding.

----------------

If you adjust or change any parameters above, iFi iDAC2 will detect it as a PCM stream instead (again with indication light) with appropriate sample rate indicated by XXHE output value.

If you do any one of the following examples, you will lose MQA stream:

1. if you turn off XXHE MQA decoding in settings, iFi DAC will see it as either 48 or 44 PCM stream.

2. Play any MQA albums marked as 44, or 48, even with MQA logo on bottom showing while playing, iFi DAC see it as PCM stream.

3. if you touch the volume in any way, iFi will see it as PCM stream.

4. if you upsample in any way, 2x, 4x and so on, iFi will see it as PCM stream with a sample rate as indicated by XXHE output.

5. Also both 2.10 and 2.10c behave the same in this test.

Best,
Zheng

[hudesigns]

Peter,
One more observation is that even with iFi DAC detecting the stream from XXHE as MQA stream, I don't see anywhere that indicate that the DAC is performing second or third stage "unfolding" with MQA albums marked as 192kHz. But iFi clearly states that it is capable of decoding MQA stream upto 384kHz.

Also none of the MQA tracks I downloaded from 2L are played in XXHE as MQA at all, either with MQA decoding on or off in XXHE settings. The little logo always show FLAC while playing and input-output is 44-44. iFi DAC always see it as PCM stream.

ZH

[Rmalits]

Hi Peter,

with 2.10 MQA is working well now in my setup, what's great.
Decoding is done well up to 96kHz.
Thank's a lot for your support and the software improvements!

Kind regards
Richard

[PeterSt]

One more observation is that even with iFi DAC detecting the stream from XXHE as MQA stream, I don't see anywhere that indicate that the DAC is performing second or third stage "unfolding" with MQA albums marked as 192kHz.

Hello Zheng,

I just quoted a kind of random sentence from your last posts because I am not sure how to approach this all. One thing is in my mind though : your iFi isn't behaving as should. But how to prove that with my own software which (apparently) can also do a couple of things not right. But point is : you now have a way inconsistent situation. So to me that tells something (to you nothing, I  am afraid).
It is almost like your iFi can't do the 1st "unfold" but can pick it up like MQA because XXHighEnd now is taking care of that part. All seems "opposite" ...

Also none of the MQA tracks I downloaded from 2L are played in XXHE as MQA at all, either with MQA decoding on or off in XXHE settings. The little logo always show FLAC while playing and input-output is 44-44. iFi DAC always see it as PCM stream.

This one is different; So as we know, I now take the FLAC header as the base and if this header doesn't tell it is MQA, then it won't be decoded as well (by XXHighEnd, I mean). If the header tells in the right way it is MQA, then it stil depends on the content, so XXHighEnd legally (read : "authenticated" (ahum)) decodes MQA ot not.
But 2L already has proven in the past that they don't comply well to header data (XXHighEnd contains exceptions for 2L (but also for many more)), so what if this is wrong now. So at this moment (and before I report back about this) I would NOT use 2L for testing whether MQA works or not.

Also be careful : MQA can be downloaded from 2L. This will NOT work in XXHighEnd for MQA decoding. Only the Preparations from Tidal will ...

Regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

Thanks Peter!
Actually your comments confirmed my doubt about this new implementation of MQA decode by iFi - that is that iFi's MQA firmware only detects a software DECODED stream as MQA stream WITHOUT further participation of 2nd or 3rd unfolding by iFi hardware. Call it "vapor" ware? Or simply a gross negligence?

Just as a matter of record, I am posting the answer that I received from iFi tech in response to my same question. It makes me even more confused:

MQA - 192KHz files are not playing?
Question: On TIDAL I play an MQA 192KHz file but it displays another sampling rate?

Answer: Typicall those albums are encoded as 48kHz MQA file. Meaning Tidal will perform the decoding to a 96kHz audio stream with the MQA renderer handling the further decoding which this has nothing to do with our products, this is how MQA & Tidal works.

To test that the actual audio stream in TIDAL is 48KHz please select "MQA passthrough", it is 96k if TIDAL decodes MQA, it is 48k on MQA pass-through.

Question: But I thought the file was 192KHz remastered?

Answer: Yes, meaning it was MQA encoded from a 192KHz remaster.

Our MQA implementation handles up to 384KHz MQA sources correctly according to MQA specifications.

Ridiculous as is, his suggestion about use of Tidal's "passthrough" is consistent with what I found with XXHE -- with XXHE MQA decode ON I got 96; decide OFF, 48.

Best,
ZH

[hudesigns]

Hi Peter,
This is just FYI. I just posted more questions to iFi technician.

Hi Alix,

Thanks for your patience. To be honest, this is getting me even more confused! Here are more questions:

1. If I let Tidal do the software decode (as seen in video instruction), where does iFi MQA hardware decode come in?

2. I have both a MQA enabled iFi iDAC2 and a non-MQA Chord Mojo DAC. They both behave exactly the same following your video instruction of Tidal MQA setup - that is with "passthrough" OFF you get 96; with "passthrough" ON you get 48. Where is the advantage of using a MQA enabled DAC like iFi with firmware 5.3 update? Does a MQA DAC suppose to do more hardware unfolding to make some MQA albums to 192 or beyond?

So far all we see is Tidal's built-in software decoding without any participation of iFi DAC hardware decoding.
Please give me some guidance. I am very confused!

Best,
Zheng

Here is the video instruction that iFi is sending to everybody:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-rMsoORSbw

[PeterSt]

Here is the video instruction that iFi is sending to everybody:

... At least that looks opposite (upside down) to me.

a. MQA Passthrough, what should it mean according to iFi ? My idea about it : don't decode, pass on to Decoder further down the line (but the video shows opposite).

b. Green light instead of blue (or purple-ish), what should it mean ? -> File is MQA Authenticated, but not signed off by the artist (et al) (but iFi hence video shows = PCM).

About your own text in your previous post I must think a little ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

iFi's MQA firmware only detects a software DECODED stream as MQA stream WITHOUT further participation of 2nd or 3rd unfolding by iFi hardware. Call it "vapor" ware?

You really make me laugh here !
But let's say it is not easy and one of the harder parts is making clear what the status is, where. In XXHighEnd this is about the Native Sampling Rate (shown in the Hires Audio little logo), the fact that it is MQA to begin with, whether it is decoded or not (just FLAC logo instead of MQA logo) and whether Blue or Green (or even Black, but never mind that). Or nothing because something is wrong. Or how the Native Sampling Rate can just be 44.1 or 48 only (no unfold anywhere).

And let's be honest, in XXHighEnd were problems because
- a PC nog being able to decode;
- I change something so the Tidal connected PC does not need to decode at all, and next the solution for that gets buggy (2.10 vs first 2.10a and next 2.10c - the latter hopefully right).

Also, a major part of this all is that nobody really understands what can happen at the user's side.

Answer: Typicall those albums are encoded as 48kHz MQA file.
Correct.

Meaning Tidal will perform the decoding to a 96kHz audio stream
Also correct. But not with MQA Passthrough ACTivated. But OK, it apparently is their assumption that Tidal will do the decoding :

with the MQA renderer handling the further decoding
Uhm, the Renderer resides in the DAC. Is that not the case with iFi then ?

which this has nothing to do with our products,
Ok, so it does nothing. You are right, it is vaporware.

To test that the actual audio stream in TIDAL is 48KHz please select "MQA passthrough", it is 96k if TIDAL decodes MQA, it is 48k on MQA pass-through.
Although the construction of this sentence is lousy, the bold part without further context is correct. The construction of the sentence is NOT lousy if they don't understand how it works. Apparently they take it that Tidal (desktop) can still decode MQA regardless. Anyway, this should have been written like this :

To check that the actual audio stream in TIDAL is actually 48KHz (it always is, unless 44.1) please select "MQA passthrough"; if it is 96k something clearly is wrong and decoding takes place ahead of our converter and now it can't render (further 2nd and 3rd unfolding)[/i].

...

Answer: Yes, meaning it was MQA encoded from a 192KHz remaster.
Initially nothing seems to be wrong with this. But mind the little bold part. Clumsey expression ? Let's say it is that.

You know what I think happened ? iFi implemented a green and blue/purple light, does not do a thing more but doesn't even understand that.
But could that be true ? it seems too far out ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

From https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/nano-idsd-bl/ :

For mobile DACs with both portability and power considerations, MQA Rendering is the ideal solution as the workload is shared between the host (computer) and the client (DAC). In this case, for a DAC such as the nano iDSD BL, less CPU processing and lower electrical power are needed. This approach for the iFi portable range remains a full end-to-end MQA solution and the listener still enjoys the full benefits of MQA without compromise.

What's this about is that this iFi can act as a Renderer only or as a Decoder plus Renderer (this is elsewhere in the text). The responses you received form tech there are about it acting as a Renderer only, with upside down advices.
But also see what I put in bold in the quote above; there's nothing portable that can decode MQA (yet) so with the example of the Tidal Desktop App (which is a Windows application and which can Decode MQA indeed), there's nothing really much left of the portable part.

British vaporware !
haha

[hudesigns]

To further annoy me is the fact that I also bought iFi USB power supply to work with iDAC2 so it does not draw power from PC's USB bus. The power supply is even capable of separating USB data and power with a USB Y cable. All their rhetoric does not make me feel confident about the company.
ZH

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I came across a strange problem while playing CSNY\Deja Vu MQA 192 from Tidal.

The first 2 tracks played normal. The third track the speed reduced significantly. I tried playing the tracks again, the first 2 tracks showed input sampling freq of 96, however the third track showed 48, which probably explains the reduced speed. However this time the third track didn't play (even at the lower speed) instead a msg popped up.

I am attaching 2 images for your ref.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

I will check that album, but do notice that it exists that tracks of an MQA album can be non-MQA. I'd say for a normal artist (like CSN&Y) album this is rare but for collections or Playlists this can easily happen for sure.

What I am not sure about at all, is whether XXHighEnd still deals with this properly. So Zheng already reported a "too slow speed", and now you do too, while I never experienced that (and it shouldn't be). Small problem : all my albums have been prepared with the decoder active at the Music Server (Tidal) PC and such a thing can only (?) go wrong with new Preps. Anyway, I will do so with Deja Vu and let you know (later today, if I don't forget).

Kind regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

Hi Arvind & Peter,
Out of curiosity I downloaded this album and played each track. I found no issues at all--all played with a 96 on input and MQA logo on with blue corner. Now I'm playing entire album unattended, it's still going strong. A delete and re-download might fix the problem for Arvind.

Nice album by the way. I remember I might have an old LP sitting in my wife's collection from college time.

ZH

[arvind]

Hi Peter & Zheng,

Re preparing the stream seems to be the next best thing to do. I’m sure this should sort out the issue in this album.

However it brings up another question, whether a playlist consisting of MQA & non MQA tracks can be played on XXHE?

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

However it brings up another question, whether a playlist consisting of MQA & non MQA tracks can be played on XXHE?

Hi Arvind, not really another question because I already talked about that. This definitely should work (was explicitly made fort it), also should still work (while things changed) but testing I am not going to do because I don't know examples. And the minute you do know them, you will have tested it yourself, right ? 

Short answer to your question : Yes.

Regards,
Peter

[hudesigns]

Peter,
This is strictly FYI. I got response from iFi regardiing Tidal-->iFi-DAC MQA decoding issue. Their answers in bold. I think it's a dead end as far as iFi tech support is concerned...  ZH

Hi Zheng,

Thanks for the update.

1. If I let Tidal do the software decode (as seen in video instruction), where does iFi MQA hardware decode come in?

- MQA is in 2 stages, decoder / renderer, so either hardware has both implemented or it has renderer whilst software does decoder.

2. I have both a MQA enabled iFi iDAC2 and a non-MQA Chord Mojo DAC. They both behave exactly the same following your video instruction of Tidal MQA setup - that is with "passthrough" OFF you get 96; with "passthrough" ON you get 48. Where is the advantage of using a MQA enabled DAC like iFi with firmware 5.3 update? Does a MQA DAC suppose to do more hardware unfolding to make some MQA albums to 192 or beyond?

- You need to speak with MQA.

So far all we see is Tidal's built-in software decoding without any participation of iFi DAC hardware decoding.
Please give me some guidance. I am very confused!

- You'll need to see MQA's technology on their website as they are the vendors of this technology.

Hope this has shed some light.

Thanks.
Alix

[hudesigns]

Peter,
I just received response from MQA regarding strange behavior of Tital/iFi combo that we have discussed. It again confirmed that the confusion we feel is legitimate! Here it is:
ZH

Hi Zheng,

Thank you for your support of MQA.

It sounds as if the iFi DAC2 is displaying the incoming digital rates and not the actual rendered, ie full content, rates. In other words, it could be that it is displaying the incoming rate of 24bit/96kHz and then doing the rest of the unfold to 192 but simply NOT displaying this as such.  I would recommend checking in with iFi to see if that is the case.

It also sounds as if you have the Tidal desktop app configured to “Decode MQA”. We would recommend turning this off and then checking to see what the iFi is displaying, including if it shows “MQA”.

How does it sound?

Regards,

The MQA team

[hudesigns]

Peter,
FYI.
I just forwarded the response from MQA to iFi tech team. Here is what I told them:

Hi Alix,
I contacted MQA support team and they responded promptly. I actually understand more of their point of view. For example, I always think why iFi demo wants us to turn Tidal passthrough OFF? In fact it should be set to ON so the iFi DAC can perform magic on the undecoded MQA stream. Once passthrough is set OFF, Tidal will decode, which will result in a PCM stream. If it is a PCM stream already, there is nothing iFi DAC can do about it, that is, no magic. Any MQA DAC needs a MQA stream to finish all the "unfoldings" implied by the original MQA encoded file. Once it turns PCM, the journey is done! This is how I understand it. Here is the response from MQA tech team:

------------------------------------
Hi Zheng,

Thank you for your support of MQA.

It sounds as if the iFi DAC2 is displaying the incoming digital rates and not the actual rendered, ie full content, rates. In other words, it could be that it is displaying the incoming rate of 24bit/96kHz and then doing the rest of the unfold to 192 but simply NOT displaying this as such. I would recommend checking in with iFi to see if that is the case.

It also sounds as if you have the Tidal desktop app configured to “Decode MQA”. We would recommend turning this off and then checking to see what the iFi is displaying, including if it shows “MQA”.

How does it sound?

Regards,

The MQA team
-------------------------------------

[PeterSt]

yeah, well, ...