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Author Topic: 2.10 sound quality  (Read 29428 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2019, 11:17:33 am »

Peter hi,

I am back to this point about  q1 and q1x again,  where sound changes for different values of
q1 and q1x values which produce the same mathematical product.

I'v been playing using q1 30 and q1x 10.
Changing to q1 15 and q1x 20, "definitely" changes sound. The presentation is much clearer and noticeably more dynamic, emotional and musical with the latter setting. Since I last posted above on this, the resolution of my PC has majorly improved, and its now very easy to hear the difference between the setting. The change in sound is repeatable when switching between the settings, q1 15 and q1x 20 just sound so much more musical.

Hi there Nick,

Possibly you thought I was ignorantly silent, but this is not so. Instead I thought to need really a few spare hours to investigate this in the program, which I just now attempted ...

First off, I right away tried to hear what you hear, but it is too much apples and oranges for me because I'd need to change the "product of the factor" to be higher, which I already don't want; I see that others easily skip this phenomenon, or even skip your subject and find the higher product / resulting number better, but I can't go for that (still working on the 12/24 for me new processor and its best sound ever by now, for me).
And exchanging my 30x5 for 5x30 does not seem to do much.
One (very) funny thing : I was just looking up the numbers (like 30x5) to be very sure and see that I left it at 5x30. Is that fun or is it not ...

Investigating the real impact is too difficult. Already the Q1 is used throughout in the program which, mind you, is all about WASAPI and how "Engine3" ever started its life as that (WASAPI playback). So if Q1 occurs 1000 times in the program, it is 900 times in vain for today's subject because you and me are not using WASAPI. But finding that proper context in the program is too difficult because the program is too large (60K C++ program lines for this audio engine only).
So I gave up on it.
But also with a real reason ... Happy

I see that Q1 is used to initialise timers for WASAPI. Btw, this is all (still) in today's secrecy because nobody uses (or can use I'd say) WASAPI the way I do it, which sheerly springs from me being 18 months ahead of everyody and the particular audio stack not being fully developed yet while I already started with it (when Windows Vista came about). Now, the fact that WASAPI can not be used for playback when its relevant services have been shut off in Minimized OS Mode (they are indeed with WASAPI services set to shut off in XXHighEnd's Settings), does (apparently) not prevent the initialisation to go ahead with everything, that possibly really setting timers which ARE there to let respond the OS differently when Audio Playback is in order (read : this dedicates to Audio). So Yes Nick, Q1 alone can very well influence SQ. I actually set myself to an "it will" because I could like it.

Like it ?
Well, we thought to know the SQ parameters by now a little, but it appears someone just found a new dimension within it.
Q1 on its own could "apply" a little of what is applied to WASAPI when used, but now it is separated from WASAPI itself. Read : buffer sizes which are influenced by Q1 explicitly for WASAPI, are now NOT in order when xQ1 is involved (only the product of the both (together with Device Buffer Size !!) is relevant) BUT the timing applied to the OS still happens. Not all the timing, but some part of it. This could be seen as "response resolution" which is within our Clock Resolution which has a life on its own (and was invented later than when we started to use WASAPI) and is explicitly not about that Clock Resolution itself, which is *also* controlled by WASAPI.

wacko

So as you see, complex stuff.

If anything, the lower Q1 would be the better one. This is a bit my own theory, but is also a remainder of the WASAPI era, although thus back then mixed with other buffer settings (plus a few miles less knowledge of it all).

Now why was my own sound so outrageously good yesterday. Maybe coincidence. But trouble is : I forgot when I set these settings, which also is related to rebooting and how they could have gone back with e reboot without saving first (of course I started with checking this out when your first posts about this emerged).
One thing I have in mind for very sure : the best sound I have now emerged 3 days ago after a reboot, but this was a special reboot which applied something special ... new to 2.11 ...
whistle

Thank you Nick !
Peter

PS: I notice that a year after, we are still not finished with exploring 2.10, right ? haha


* Q101.png (67.14 KB, 248x446 - viewed 252 times.)
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Nick
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« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2019, 11:21:52 pm »

Hey Peter,

I had guessed that you might have been looking at the possible reasons for the SQ differences. 60k lines of C that is some program.  It's a facinating explanation of what could be happening, thank you.

So I think you are saying that buffer size is the simple product of q1 an xq1, but q1 is also used elsewhere in the engine by itself to influance timing. Now you have explained this it may make sense in terms of what I hear. The SQ difference I get when selecting a lower q1 value (of course whilst ensuring the q1, xq1 product remains the same) is similar in character to changing the timer resolution setting.

It's good to know my hearing is not changing slightly each time q1 and xq1 "pairs" are changed  Happy

Quote

One thing I have in mind for very sure : the best sound I have now emerged 3 days ago after a reboot, but this was a special reboot which applied something special ... new to 2.11 ...


I am really looking forwards to this, I cannot wait.....

Kr,

Nick.

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Audio PCs
PC No. 1: 621 motherboard Xeon 32 thread CPU.
PC No 2: X99 motherboard Xeon 28 thread CPU - modified motherboard.

 w10 14393 RAM OS => XX V2.10 / adaptive mode / XX buffer 4096 / NOS USB driver v 1.02 buffer 16ms / Q1,2,3,4,5 = 15,-,1,1,1 / xQ1 =20 / unattended / SFS 0.69Mb / memory straight continuous / system clock 15.0ms / Threadprio RealTime / Playerprio Low / CPU scheme 3-5 / 16x Arc Prediction / Peak Extend off / Phase alignment off / Phase off  / XTweaks : Balanced Load 35 / Nervous Rate 10 (or15) / Cool when Idle n/a / Provide Stable Power 0 / Utilize Cores always 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability  On => Lush USB cable => modified NOS1 USB DAC => no pre amp => Orelo active horn loudspeakers with modified bass channel DSPs.

Music server: X99, Xeon 16 thread PC.

System powered direct from mains.
Robert
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« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2019, 12:58:33 am »

I find this setting Q1 at 5 and xQ1 30 is even better than the opposite. I'm currently finding Xxhighend is very responsive to Alt commands and almost responds immediately.

Still running custom filters Low 705600. Differences between filters easily noticable.

Robert
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Intel I7, 4790k, 4/8 core, 32g ram, W10, Pro64, Ver 14393, No updates, Hyperthreading On @~800MHz, Bios settings adjusted
XXhighend Ver 2.10 Ram OS, Settings:Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *5* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *.69*  (max .69) / Disable Cracks Off / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-4 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ UnAttended / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Don't use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper Off / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filter*
Music on LAN, Phasure Lush USB cable
Oppo 205 UDP Pre/Dac
Nordost Heimdall II interconnects, Nordost Heimdall II Power Cords, Audioquest power cords
Chriquet Active Electronic 2 way Crossover 80hz
Unity Audio Boulder MKI Active Monitors x 2, JLAudio 12 Subs x 2
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« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2019, 05:40:05 pm »

Hi there,

since a few weeks I am using the new settings for Q1 and Q1x:
15 x20. With the small SFS = 0,69 the sound is lot better now, more precise and dynamic. The sound stage improved too.
Before that parameter change the sound was a bit „smearing“ and I wasn‘t sure about my new speakers...

Thanks a lot to all of you who found these new Q1/Q1x settings!

During the last months I also tried different values for balanced load between 8 and 16. I ended up with 12.

Kind regards
Richard
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 15/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 20 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69 (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 12 / Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)
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