0dB cracks at -24dB volume ?

[hybride]

Damn! (sorry)
From the 3th to the 4th track; no track data, XX stops playing...
Then pointing the mouse at nr4 and click play...
CONTINUOUS CRACKS/NOISE AT 0 DB!!!  AAARGHH

Peter how can this 0db screaming come out of my speakers with the slider is at -24db

[PeterSt]

I explained this elsewhere (release notes on 0.9u-0 I think) :

This is not 0dB, but (as I say) clips the DAC. The byte order will be wrong, and e.g. +2V jumps to -2V in one step. The DAC can't handle that.
Try to set the volume at 0dB and notice that it's way louder then ... 

Btw, in that file the data will be wrong.

[Gerard]

Hi Hybride,

Maybe try a different Q1 setting.... 14.... Worked for me before....

 

[PeterSt]

I don't think that can create the loud cracks hybride is talking about Gerard.

[Gerard]

I don't think that can create the loud cracks hybride is talking about Gerard.

OK 

[hybride]

HOLY sh*t!!!!!!!!!

THE CRACKING BLEW UP A TWEETER IN ONE OFF MY (€4000 piece) SPEAKER!!!!

Peter, alarm!!!

YOU HAVE TO WARN ALL THE PEOPLE WHO USE ENG#3 WITH NO PRE-AMP.

 

[PeterSt]

First response : you are allowed to shout as much as you want. Special occasion.
No, I won't put smileys, because this is far from funny.

A second response is coming up.

[PeterSt]

So, second response ...

hybride, this indeed is serious. Ok, not to withdraw any of my sad feelings, but this is literal part of the Release Notes :

Serious warning : Follow below procedures precisely, or you may end up with smoked speakers. Please don't hold me responsible if it happens anyway !

so on that matter I tried my best. However ...

The "why" is important here. And I know, not for you ... not this time. !

In between lines : I had it myself in three occasions or so, the last time yesterday at going from one format (like 96/24 to 96/16) to another the player can't deal with, and for which I did my stinking best to capture the situation. I wrote about it yesterday ...

Does this help you ? no, still not obviously.

The real (kind of) response is that one should be over-careful not to try this on material you actually don't know, or don't know how it works out within XX. And I can't emphasize more on the FACT that Microsoft herself does not comply to the RIFF (blahblah) Audio (Red Book) rules, with the example of WMP rips on one side and playback via WASAPI Exclusive Mode on the other.
And then there's also errors on my side ...

In the area of playing without a preamp there are dangerous dangers. One of them is the loud clicks, which were discussed yesterday I think, at the DAC settling at 88.2 or 96 KHz. At least with my DAC this is so, that most probably always have been so, but never came out as the loud unattenuated click because of ... well, it just being attenuated analoguely.

I want to write more, but it doesn't help you.
I can only hope a wire went loose ...

[PeterSt]

For now, and for others KEEP ON KEEPING THIS IN MIND !

... and maybe for more reasons than indicated here :

[PeterSt]

For now this doesn't leave my mind;

Thinking of the +2V/-2V story, I think I am able to build in a check for too large voltage steps happening.
Yes, I will test it myself.

[PeterSt]

It is strongly advised to not use your system without a preamp (or the pre-amp at max volume for that matter) if you or your speakers won't be able to handle a situation that e.g. the file contains wrongly formatted data or otherwise - because of which cracks may emerge with an energy beyond imagination.

I added this text to the Release Notes on each of the versions that support the Digital Volume. The least I could do.


To emphasize the potential danger : you may have heard of the Densen CD. This CD contains a special track that "demagnetizes" the equipment. The track contains rather rubbish tones. Throughout times I smoked both of my Infinity R90 tweeters TWICE by playing this track too loud. "Too loud" meant : the volume at 10-to while normal music played at 15-past easily or at full for that matter.
It's the harmonics which are dangerous, and the cracks as can be experienced are full of squares, producing those harmonics.

Ever heard of UDIAL ? this is a kind of SRC test file and there too 19KHz harmonics (inaudible) exist. That smokes speakers easily.

Somehow I suddenly lost the energy to continue on XX development

[hybride]

I have the Densen cd, but didn't know the risks.

Peter, thanks for the extra warning for 'newbies' like me.

You suggest that files can contain wrong format data and that explains this behaviour.
But with Foobar of Eng#1  i never have (had) such failures; every file makes music or it is rejected with a windows file error (very rare).

What makes you so sure?

 

[PeterSt]

Hard to explain for someone not deep into it, but it comes briefly down to this :

Vista Exclusive Mode is *very* formal when it comes down to accepting formats. Say, it only accept formats which are defined by standards officially. An example of unofficial formats is what WMP produces at ripping. So, this already can't be played with Vista's own audio playback means.
But it works the other way around as well :

If you have followed this forum for that last 2 or 3 weeks, you may have noticed the difficulties with DACs just not wanting to play where they should. Their format is rejected by Vista Exclusive Mode (and all other means of playback just allow for it). So it needed tweaking which in the end comes down to, you could say, allowing too much. Too much in a technical sense because Vista actually doesn't allow it. Not that such can cause cracks, but all the variations must be dealt with by me now. Including holding back those actually not allowed.

Lastly, please note that XX does more than e.g. Foobar to the sense of exploiting bits in the DAC which just the same can just be thrown away. The 96/24 which can be played by Foobar with the April Music (like Stello) DAC is an example. So, Foobar allows it, but it really plays at 44.1/16. This by itself caused by Vista Shared Mode (!) which can make it that. Say, a hoax.

All 'n all, sadly, that other players allow things doesn't say much for this environment.

In the end all can be solved, with the WMP rips as the example again. XX can deal with them, after me for some days working out that format, and convert it back to normal RIFF/ Red Book. FIRST though, we must recognize that things are not right, and how to know it ? There is no way that a bunch of bytes can tell whether it's music data or a coverart photo. Okay, except for what I said before : I could examine the voltage leaps. They can only be normal/legal to a certain extend.

Please keep in mind : even something like Wavelab (which is, rather well known software) doesn't do it right. It destroys the header data according the official format.

I know, all look like excuses, but it is really Vista WASAPI flawing. The only thing I can say is that I can work it out if time allows *BUT* / *AND* if we first know what the wrongies are.

[hybride]

As you say i am not deep into this theorie.
I can understand your explanation about Vista's formal exclusive mode.

Maybe a (to) simple thought for a possible solution;
Can you create a code that verifys - and maybe repair- the -flac extracted- WAV file in a formal (Vista) way?
Only when this 'verify' is 100% then the file is going to Eng#3

[PeterSt]

This already happens for the part that can be checked, although I can expand the checks here and there. Example :

If you'd delete the first byte from the music data part, exactly what you experienced would happen. The byte order now is wrong, and the plus and minus voltage indications are not read and instead random data for that is read. A solution to this which I can apply : check for the file if it has a number of bytes that can devide by 4. Still not waterproof, but better again.
For 96/24 this check doesn't work, and instead now the data bytes must be devideable by 6.

This is just an example of things which can be applied, and many more exist (while all the normal are already in there).

I will do my best ...

[hybride]

Well, while waiting for a new tweeter i bought some oldies for the meantime (and for testing XX ); Tannoy 611 MKII.
This oldies do not sound bad.

Well Peter, now i have to wait for an update of XX, with more security checks for wrong audiocode.
Plz. can you give this item some priority..

[PeterSt]

I'm working on that since hybride. Some "interesting" things came up though. I will report on that soon.

[hybride]

Last hours playing with a pre-amp and XX at 0db.
The problems i had with my DAC seen to be gone.
Sometimes some mini-loops, but no cracking DAC for this moment.
Peter, the problems i had could also be related to the digital volume code.

[PeterSt]

Quite impossible.
You can test that though by playing at e.g. -6dB with the preamp attenuating (a little less opposed to 0dB).
Just in case, please be careful.

[hybride]

Quite impossible.

Your right... The crackling just came up. Noting to do with volume.

[PeterSt]

Can you please try to explain as exactly as possible

- what you are playing (title) incl. subsequent tracks and where it happens;
- Messages which may popup (with message content please);
- File types (like 96/24) you think the subsequent tracks are;
- The DAC settings in XX (DAC is and DAC Needs).
- Whether it's repeatable (always start at the previous track where things were OK from the beginning).

Thanks !

[hybride]

As i remember it happens at the end of a song, a few moments after the music is fading out.
But ill will try to answer all your question. I will take some time.

[hybride]

This is a flac song from Eva Cassidy
The slider is at +- 75% when the song is finished?
At 80% the cracks begin and continue untill pressing stop.
Dac is at 16/96
Action is repeatable
You see 2 errors. After a while its also popups length error

[PeterSt]

a. If this is Vista, this looks like a case of numerous services shut down. By itself this is no problem, but when they do during playing, it can cause cracks (less to worse. ending up in bad).

b. Those tracks with the same length (time) sure don't look right. I.e. this looks like trouble. How do you do that ? Can you repeat *that* ?

[hybride]

b. Those tracks with the same length (time) sure don't look right. I.e. this looks like trouble. How do you do that ? Can you repeat *that* ?

hmm i didn't see that! I'll try to load the playlist again and see if this is repeatable.

[hybride]

This error appears when loading a few files to the playlist.
The files are loaded on the playlist through the errors.
Well this causes files to be loaded with the wrong filesize
Could that be the reason for the strange behaviour off XX?

[hybride]

Peter, i found something out.

The length error has something to do with the flac codec. I transcoded the files again with media coder and then there is no length error when loading to the playlist

[Gerard]

Peter, i found something out.

The length error has something to do with the flac codec. I transcoded the files again with media coder and then there is no length error when loading to the playlist

I have had such file's (cd's) too... They did play after pushing the errors away.... The cd's i really liked i converted to WAV and than there seems to be no problem...

 

[hybride]

hi Gerard,

Well, thats a good (temperaly) solution for a few cd's . i hope i don't have to convert 500 gb flac files back to WAV.
What i don't understand that there can be differences in flac files. In other words why recoding Flac to Flac solves problems with XX.

[PeterSt]

Internally they are decoded to WAV anyway, but apparently something is kind of officially wrong in your "originals" ?
They are 44.1/16 ?

[Gerard]

hi Gerard,

Well, thats a good (temperaly) solution for a few cd's . i hope i don't have to convert 500 gb flac files back to WAV.
What i don't understand that there can be differences in flac files. In other words why recoding Flac to Flac solves problems with XX.

Hybride   (Should be my name now)  

Well at the time i didn't understand that too.... But since the problem only occured with a few day 20 cd's from the 700 i didn't make a big problem of it.... But the thing you say ( Flac converted too Flac ) That is funny!!  

[PeterSt]

The files are loaded on the playlist through the errors.

Yes, that is something that is wrong. Like I indicated earlier : it is your 1) causing it, the other errors following from that.
This is wrong by itself in the code indeed (loading through the errors).

That reencoding can help is not strange.
That other programs may not be bothered by it is not strange as well. Think of this : I always respected the length as indicated in the header (think normal WAV files now). Today I changed that by, say, just using the physical file length. This is not the way it should go, but it is less error-prone anyway.
Doing this for FLAC is not so easy (at all), because the file length is unrelated to the original file length (as you might have expected). BUT :
The only reason why I grab the file length from the header data, is in order to present the time, which in the end *is* important, thinking of the bottom slider ... That by itself causing "synchronization" with the playback, as you in fact noticed earlier.

[hybride]

Peter thank you for XXHighEnd Model 0.9u-4 

Loading and playing the playlist has defenite been upgraded to a better level!

The cracking -DAC error- is still there in some occasions.

When i press 'stop' in the middle of a song because i want to skip it, i click the next song in the playlist followed by click 'play' again.
XX starts then loading the next song. While loading my DAC cracks (think at 0db).
When the file is loaded and the slider jumps to startposition the crack stops and the music starts normally.

   

[PeterSt]

Is this "crack" or (loud) "tick" ?

[hybride]

Its continous hard cracking for 1 or 2 seconds. It hears like a low frequency, like 100hz
There is something more about this. When i open the library in idle state of XX, the crackling comes up!? and won't stop untill i starts playing a song.

Another -less important- issue in this case are the short miniloops when moving the slider within a song or sometimes when click stop, pauze or play.
It seems that stopping the stream to the dac -sometimes- goes wrong.
Can it be that this is an issue of the -in this case- the Stello dac?

 
 

[PeterSt]

Ah ... stopping the DAC is an issue I promised before to kind of explicitly look at. Never did yet though.

I don't think I heard it from the Stello, but sure from USB in general.
I'll try.

[hybride]

By the way.. The sound is really amazing!!! (not just complaining)