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Author Topic: Who is interested in delving deep into the subject of Musical Perception ?  (Read 532 times)
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Daudio
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« on: March 29, 2019, 06:40:08 am »

I’m looking for a few serious folks who are interested in how we audiophiles hear what we hear.  This is a subject that has had me curious and learning since 1977  Happy

We currently have a small mailing list, but are actively looking for a forum (or something?) to host broader and more public discussions.

So if you are very, even passionately, interested in any of the following areas, maybe have something to contribute, please contact me by PM or email.

Musical Perception (& Cognition)” 
or, how we perceive music, including, but not limited to the following:
  Auditory perception  (mechanical and neurological (mostly!))
  Neurobiology/Neuroscience of music perception, 
  Psychoacoustics
  Listening and hearing, (active vs. passive characteristics)
  Music and the brain/mind  (music can only exist in the brain, nowhere else)

In addition there are some practical areas to appeal to a broader audiophile audience

Hearing & Listening
   “Musical Perception”  (as above)
   “Audiophile Listening skills”  (skills, training, learning, and expertise)
   “Hearing problems and issues” (avoiding bias, hearing aids, etc.)
   “Talking sound quality” (verbalizing and communicating listening experiences)

Thanks,
Dave Ayers
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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 12:03:01 pm »


Hi there Dave,

We actually know each other for quite some years by now and I think I can see what you are after and what motivates you. I say : nice subject for a dedicated group indeed, but possibly also a bit "cult". This latter is only my subjective description of the reason of why that I myself won't join that group. There would be no real objective for me, other than hanging out the  intelligence which may or may not exist in your country, but I don't think so (we tend to go to countries like Russia for that and people who never been there, may not even know what the heck I am talking about now).

This doesn't prevent me/us from liking the subjects from (or for) a less closed discussion perspective. It may also not prevent the medical educated from liking your first list of subjects, of which I know to have at least one customer. It even didn't prevent me personally from presenting a small seminar together with that person - about those very subjects, a couple of years ago somewhere in the US of A.
But I now count 3 if I include you and I myself can not count further, unless it's getting wild and not serious, like some other forums tend to treat such subjects. swoon

Still there ?
Of course, as usual I talk in the sense of yes but no, or rather not and maybe still. Sorry for that. Happy

The second list :

Hearing & Listening
   “Musical Perception”  (as above)
   “Audiophile Listening skills”  (skills, training, learning, and expertise)
   “Hearing problems and issues” (avoiding bias, hearing aids, etc.)
   “Talking sound quality” (verbalizing and communicating listening experiences)

suits me better but should also suit vistors of this forum better because "we" are performing this in a rather continuous way. This starts with myself and how I express changes (to expect) plus how they should be presented in an objective fashion, which start with listening objectively. There you have the whole list in one sentence.

While this thus attracts me, or other for that matter, it is again nothing to keep for ourselves. It would be useless. Also, and I think you know that already, it would feel like a waste of time to discuss - or even expand knowledge - within such a small group. It might lead to being better at things, but what for. Me for you ? You for me ? Obviously I can't judge for your thinking here, as I can't think for others. And it will show easily by the "members" who may join.

If possible at all, I would like this to be an open discussion and it could be right on this forum. It may be small again (or at least much smaller than many other forums), but what you can expect from here is only serious people with serious own/self judgments and no shouting because of the shouting. But then again, whether this addresses many people I myself may wonder, although I will know a few this time. At least it can't harm to try it out.
In a next post I will make a small attempt to let it grow a little, but be warned about nothing much happening. This, while I am confident that people will read with interest.

Best regards from here,
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 12:53:31 pm »


Within this "community" (now over 12 years old I tink), we learned to express audio in a (most special) way that everybody unconditionally believes what the other is stating. I mean, if someone tells something on this forum, it is not only me who believes it unconditionally, but everybody will.
This is prerequisite #1 to let work anything when it is about

Talking sound quality (verbalizing and communicating listening experiences)

The fun is that there are no rules now about how to express. At least I don't recall that they exist. Not explicitly but also not implicitly. However, since most here in this forum starts a bit with me, people may tend to express similar as me. But nothing depicts it and I don't see it happening for real (trying to look back). However, it would be easy to have this conversation :

PeterSt : Listen to this little part - it gives you a feeling in the stomach which is not present at all with dial A to 1.

Contender #2 : Yea, I agree, it is easy to hear. And if I set dial A to 9 something get on my nerves. Thank you for this, it is way better like this.

PeterSt : Now you mention it, my wife gets itchy with that thing set to 9.


Here, contender #2 was not the first with an observation, but PeterSt challenged him or her to make something conscious which unconsciously was there already. All it took was making Contender #2 confident to now express too about this same.
What is of unsurpassed importance is that PeterSt receives confirmation about something he was not sure about at all, which he couldn't be because of being alone at first.

Hearing problems and issues (avoiding bias, hearing aids, etc.)

There. It is only that this is not an explicit means for recognition by others, but with the notice that everybody is allowed to disagree, it is becoming an objective measure. This, of course, hoping for at least 10 others to judge the same, especially with other subjects relating (the Dial A at 9 expression).
We, at this forum, are very long past distrust of any individual. And this is surely not about me only - it is merely about all of the others except me. I am hardly of importance because of one out of one thousand only. But then ...

Audiophile Listening skills”  (skills, training, learning, and expertise)

... Instead of treating everything like a placebo and demanding measurement and what not, if one unconditionally believes what the other hears - no matter it seems to depend on cognition (haha) - one could try to learn along even at this distance and (not listening together to the same set of speakers in the same room etc.). And you know what ? already the next minute "you" can contribute at the same level of quality just because you learned it is allowed in the first place. "So wait, if Dial A at 1 gives a sense in the stomach, then I  can just as well bring across that Dial A at 9 gives me the creeps, right ?".
And really, if only ONE other person is affirmative about Dial A giving some itches, it will be a fact forever and for everybody.
It will be law and a new control (or insight of it) is born ...

Right. The above in a nutshell what IMO this could all be about. Or, what its purpose could be (while we actually already know - not newbies of course). For now this leaves this one :

Musical Perception

Possibly this one is dedicated for me only, because I don't recall much others talking about this in writing. In person (music playing) this is super easy, but in writing it takes so much blahblah that possibly only I can do it.
It is nothing that people readily can agree with, or test for the same. Maybe it can't even exist (see the first list) because we are too different. Still it is recognizable that if with me the adrenaline is flowing, it flows with everybody in the room BUT we then all behave the same. So this could be an unfair description. Fact is that once this starts happening (adrenaline is just one example) it can only get better and never worse.

To name something which is probably very personal : when my mood is bad (this is very rare but it can happen) a. all music sounds bad and b. no music can improve my mood. For me it is only the other way around : when my mood is good the music sounds (even) better.

I could give a couple of examples of how I perceive music - and then always related to some settings change or due new hardware thing), but this forum is already full with it. My posts regarding this are always extremely long-winded, and I feel I can only bring across the (whatever) message with a great deal of entourage description. Maybe I feel that things must read like a novel, some times like a thriller or else I can't bring across what I want. It's always in the midst of the sensation still present, and always right away next morning (later and I can't do it any more).

Mind you, this is again about how we communicate the listening experiences (already dealt with more above) but this starts with the happening itself. Thus, without expressing about how (in this case) I perceive the music and what the conditions are/were, I will not be able to communicate it.

All 'n all, there is no such thing in my  - or anyone's vocabulary here "it sounds better now !";
Better does not exist. A description of a state of mind (I am trying to be educated now) does. Talking you into the same, also exists (think be being commercial now, although I am not and probably can't be for real).


Possibly such things can happen on this forum only.
Most probably such things can happen in a private group easily. But that is not fair because the group will not require justification. Here, a public forum, is full of it.
It is also a major reason why I don't like private emails about such matters in the first place. No justification is needed at all (I probably could talk anyone into anything with a bunch of lies) and my brain knows that too. It thinks differently in that situation. No lies are possible on a public forum. A lot of shouting Yes. But then again, not on this one.

Peter
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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