u10 vs. u8

[LydMekk]

Have swapped between these two around 10 times now. Can't really show any big differences in my setup, maybe a LITTLE more impact in the bass in u8?

Maybe u10 sound a little more clinical?

Or, is it me who's off my game?

Any other views? Using UpsampleON, Noinvert, 0db and Q=14. ProSch-3. 44/16 material, WAV only.

[LydMekk]

Hm, nah, not sure there's much difference.
Will test some more.

Mani, any thoughts?

[andy74]

To me u8 sounds better/smother.
u10 gives me a "headache" of mine again.
But I seem to be alone in what I hear/feel. So don't think it is important anymore to others.

[PeterSt]

So don't think it is important anymore to others.

Are you crazy ? to me it is ...

[PeterSt]

Andrey, can you tell at which settings you do this comparison ?
And can you describe for a simple soul like me i.e. in for me audible terms what you hear (as differences) ?

I assume you compare Unattended only ?

Lastly, wouldn't it be better for you to play with the Mem box checked ? (but first look whether it makes a difference at all, which you can see by the memory useage).

Peter

[hybride]

To me u8 sounds better/smother.
u10 gives me a "headache" of mine again.
But I seem to be alone in what I hear/feel. So don't think it is important anymore to others.

Your not alone. I currently play music with XMplay with WASAPI output because it sounds better then the last generation builds of xxplay (sorry Peter).

Not to criticise XXPlayer, but would you try XMplay as well to discuss differences in SQ between those engines.   

[PeterSt]

I already did that, but it doesn't play in Exclusive Mode with my soundcard (and it sounded "grey" in the mean time).

[PeterSt]

hybride,

I have been thinking ...
What do you hear as a main difference beteen 0.9u-8 and 0.9u-10 ? Or if not 0.9-8 which you compare to, which version is that ?

If you can describe it, I can easily put back what should make that difference, and then you can try again ...

For you too counts, that checking the Mem checkbox should go back to "the" old situation ...

[hybride]

I always update XXplayer when you present a new build. So i installed 0.9u-10 at the moment.
I did not do a A-B comparisons between different builds. I will do that tonight. i'll will try the 'mem' box as well.
I only stream at 16/44.1 and play with the settings Q1 and invert.

Better in this case is not an easy thing to explain and bescribe.
between 0.9u-10 and XMplay>WASAPI@EXCL_mode the last sound more musical, softer and less harsch.
Instruments sounds more real, more enjoying the consonance.
XXplayer (0.9u-10) sounds scharper with a bit more dynamics. In my setup it is a disadvantage to enjoy music.

[hybride]

I already did that, but it doesn't play in Exclusive Mode with my soundcard (and it sounded "grey" in the mean time).

Mayby you should try a 18 dollar Cmedia with Dogber driver 

[andy74]

Andrey, can you tell at which settings you do this comparison ?

Priorities are both set to nothing, Q1=14, no invert, no upsample, 16/44.1, Unattended, Membox unchecked.

And can you describe for a simple soul like me i.e. in for me audible terms what you hear (as differences) ?

It may sounds whatever. But I can't describe it in soundstage terms. The bass and trebles seem the same. it's other thing.
It's just that physical discomfort I start to feel. It's like the left side of my head starts to shift related to the right. there... hahaha. Not sure if it helps.
And yes it is less musical and less enjoyable as an outcome.

I assume you compare Unattended only ?

yes

Lastly, wouldn't it be better for you to play with the Mem box checked ? (but first look whether it makes a difference at all, which you can see by the memory useage).

Will try it when get back "home" tonight.

Andrey

[LydMekk]

This is what I call "Unconsciously gnashing of teeth syndrome"...just to NAME the thing...
Will test some more Peter, and get back to you.

[andy74]

Yeah... it's good to be perfect...

[SeVeReD]

To me u8 sounds better/smother.
u10 gives me a "headache" of mine again.
But I seem to be alone in what I hear/feel. So don't think it is important anymore to others.

Ah ya, I think you're spot on most of the time.  My vote is for you to keep your ears in here for all our sake.

[andy74]

I tried:

1. u-8 mem unchecked
2. u-8 mem checked
3. u-10 mem unchecked
4. u-10 mem checked

1 sounds the best of all.

In 4 checking mem box cures the situation of 3 "twisting my head", but still not as good as 1 or 2.
2 sounds less smother than 1.

As I understand In my case checking mem box shouldn't change SQ because I am listening 16/44 But it does somehow.

Andrey

[andy74]

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.

[PeterSt]

As I understand In my case checking mem box shouldn't change SQ because I am listening 16/44 But it does somehow.

This is hard to tell or predict (in fact, I'm thinking of building in some log).
But that is why I told to check the memory; if it remains the same, it does nothing, and the executed code is really the same.
... I think / it should. But please tell the result of the Mem box and Memory useage.

And note that I will apply the changes according to your twisted brain. I like a twisted brain too, but then from a nice pint of beer.


Now, I asked LydMekk per PM to describe the differences as well, say, in order not to get plecabo'd. The key is in his observations.
LydMekk, allow me to quote you from your PM :

Have compared u8 and u10 again tonight some 20 times. Played 1 WAV 44/16 EAC-ripped, Fourplay->Journey-Fields of Gold.

The difference is minute, but it's there. 08 Sounds "rounder" and more gentle. U10 has more energy and level in transient edges in the upper regions, maybe from mid and up, like plucking the cords on a guitar sounds higher and clearer. U8 has almost not enough "crispiness" but in u10 theres tilting towards to much.

Maybe u10 has a slightly bigger scene, but that may be the slightly increased playback level upwards.

Seems I can set the volume up a notch on 08, on u10 I can't play as loud. I kind of relaxes more with u8 than u10 but u10 sounds more "clear".

I know, I also starts to confuse myself here...twisting and turning trying to explain what is more of a "feeling"...

Above text was never implied by me, but shows exactly what I expected (from the code) and what I experience myself. Ok, I *did* talk about it earlier but in other contexts, and some year ago it was excessivley discussed elsewhere, because it is so hard to comprehend.
Note that LydMekk is playing Double/Upsampled, where this shows more than what I like, hence what I find bearable.

I earlier referred to "energy" and stuff, but which is not measurable. In fact it is easy to recognize, once you have the experience; this is about higher dynamics. So, what theoretically is applied now is the "crazy dynamics" as how I called them one year ago, and which came from an early XXEngine3 version in Double and Double/Upsample. It kind of happened by accident, but I never forgot it and how the code was. Now, this has been applied to the normal (not Double) version as well, with the remark of it not being able to express that well there, because of (one of the) explicit "de-jitter" operations not working (like Double would do that). But it is there ...

How do you notice ? well, very easy, you can't play that loud. How do you *really* notice ? even more easy : because your wife tells you it's too loud. To give an indication of the difference : I played at -24dB since the Digital Volume, once we all got used to the level of -30dB (per night), and now I play at -36dB and maybe I switch to -30dB. It just gets too loud otherwise. Not harsh, not disturbing, but just too loud. How can that be ?

Apart from quite some pages in order to (the attempt to) reason it out which I did one year ago, it can't. I mean, take out your dB meter and measure. There is just no difference. Mind you, this is about super transients, which possibly won't be caught by my slow meter. Still I set my volume 6dB lower, if not 12 ...

I can't be sure what it takes from the rest of the equipment to show this, but I know that my SS amps I had one year ago, including my Infinity R90s from back then, showed it easily. But, the band high-mid and tweeter in the R90's are capable of producing very high energy and are very fast ...
I am not sure what happens when the equipment is fed with these higher transients while it can't cope. You just won't notice ? plain distortion ? unwanted harmonics arise (is distortion of course) ? uncomfortable feeling ?

Stupid thing is, that I know that the highst level of "this" is better from theory. Better from the theory of the things I apply in the program, and assuming this can not overshoot, probably our systems can't cope with it ? I don't have the answer to this yet.

Might you have difficulties in recognizing it, try to pay attention to suddenly generally occurring similar things everywhere. In this case it would be about rattling the (wound) strings which every guitar player seems to be keen on (or can't avoid).

For those who think this is good (on their system), I can go one step further with this, although technically I don't know how to do it yet. So that's for later, when I have become more smart.
For those who think this is not good, I will create a checkbox "High Dynamics" for the next version. As how the code is setup now, this can easily be applied without changing the SQ in the base of either. Maybe I should call it "Low Dynamics" because I keep on thinking that the latest (0.9u-10) is theoretically better and should be default.

Peter

[hybride]

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away
XXplay shines, but not on every speaker... Don't ask me why..

[LydMekk]

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away
XXplay shines, but not on every speaker... Don't ask me why..

Welcome to the wonderful world of JMLab! 
Have a Utopia Nova Be set myself and am very happy with the speakers.
The beryllium tweeters have a great resolution range IMO.

OT: Peter, will try out differences (or not) tonight trying playback without Double or Upsamp between u8 and u10. "And then we will see, won't we..." 

[PeterSt]

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away

First of al big congrats hybride !
Then, I didn't want to suggest this directly, also because of "the" situation (you know ...), but if you read my before post again you can see it's dripping all over from it.

[Leo]

How do you notice ? well, very easy, you can't play that loud. How do you *really* notice ? even more easy : because your wife tells you it's too loud. To give an indication of the difference : I played at -24dB since the Digital Volume, once we all got used to the level of -30dB (per night), and now I play at -36dB and maybe I switch to -30dB. It just gets too loud otherwise. Not harsh, not disturbing, but just too loud. How can that be ?

Apart from quite some pages in order to (the attempt to) reason it out which I did one year ago, it can't. I mean, take out your dB meter and measure. There is just no difference. Mind you, this is about super transients, which possibly won't be caught by my slow meter. Still I set my volume 6dB lower, if not 12 ...

This quote from you Peter exactly describes what I experience with the latest version. If I hadn't read your comment  before I would have made a post about what you had done to the volume. I had a similar experience with foobar (in the old days) with a german Asio driver that I had bought. I liked that driver a lot better than other ASIO drivers I tried. And it was much louder in my perception than other Foobar implementations.

Very interesting stuff this.