Spdif digital out only???

[tricka]

okey dokey
Vista Ultimate SP1; Latest XX High End D/L 09-x5b.
have been mucking around with this for 2 days now  .
This is what I have found:
1. this is non inituitive, even for a linux user;
2. seems that digital out via spdif is the only available connection under XX High End; in particular it doesn't recognise firewire (KRK Ergo Dac/ Weiss Firewire Dac).

I've got past the instal/admin/digital certifcate issues with Vista but so far can only see XX High End working with spdif out. Is this so?

Yours in frustration

Andrew Stenhouse

[PeterSt]

hehehe




Shouldn't Linux users be banned in advance ? one never knows what harm they can cause to a Windows PC ...

Anyway ...
First of all, I don't think I saw a Weiss user around here yet. So, I can't judge that one, and I know of at least one DAC which can't be addressed by WASAPI. But let's not assume it is this that what is bugging you.
Firewire for sure can be used, and many people here do that (many = ten(th)s of them). All will be using a Fireface though, and I am one of them.

What is not transparant at all, is how to use Firewire in this case. Right now I can't tell how familair you are with that, but in the end the least it will be able to support is ... SPDIF. But, other transport layers like (8 channel) ADAT just work as well. So it can't be that.
In any case you should be seeing the enabled SPDIF or ADAT devices in the Sound Device list (Settings Area, and it works with 0.9x-5b only; otherwise the device concerned has to be set to the Primary Sound Device).

Now, you actually did not tell *why* you think XX does not recognize the devices you want to use, or how it expresses. So, possibly they do show up in the list I talked about, and something else is the matter (like no sound, or end point create failed message).
If the first ... see above, if the latter, you could post a Dac Test report (Dac Test is the one but last option in the "DAC Is" combobox in the Settings Area). Play the DAC Test with a 16/44.1 WAV file.

Now, let's see where this will bring us !
Peter

[tricka]

Ha ha ha
yes Linux users should be banned from Windows....it's too frustrating .
Righto..you are quite correct in your assumptions...I do see all my devices in the Settings area and can select them as will as primary sound. Yes you are quite right the the error is a Create Endpoint error = no sound. Test dac shows no formats supported with any device, shared test dac show all formats supported.
My apologies for the lack of screenshots. Hopefully today I will get a chance to get some shots up.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
A

[PeterSt]

shared test dac show all formats supported

Hi Andrew,

This Shared Dac Test is not official (I didn't even anounce it at any time), but theoretically -if that does show supported rates while Exclusive (the one but last Dac Test in the list) does not show them- it would mean that the rates shown at shared are only supported after resampling.

Don't hang me on this, because it's not official, hence not worked out decently.

The gerenal problem is that when the official Dac Test does not show support at certain rates (or all), the Dac doesn't talk properly back to the OS, or indeed does not support it. In your Firewire case I hardly can believe that though, and I only know it of USB devices. Otoh, the only experience I (we here) have on Firewire is the RME Fireface. And some propriatary Firewire interface I created for myself to the DAC ... that worked too.

I hope we can work it out ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

It just slips into my mind (besides it should be VERY late at you last posting) ... do your Firewire devices show as "Loudspeakers" or as SPDIF or ADAT ? If Loudspeakers, you will be using XP drivers, and that may be the culprit.

?

[tricka]

yes they show up as loudspeakers ah ha! So yes XP drivers huh.
Hmmmm...annoying.
Might be time to buy a new firewire dac. My apologies - I don't have a Weiss...I meant to say that is what I was looking at buying and so had in mind for use. Purely KRK at the moment.
Perhaps an RME would be better. I have had a RME 9632 and it was my favourite Prosumer card. Super stable.
Ok thanks again.
Cheers
Andrew

[tricka]

okey...
bit more fiddling and I have sound out from the onboard HDA s/c through the "Primary Sound device" = front speakers. No more errors.
Now I see what the fuss is about - very very good sound quality; >> than ASIO (which i have never really liked). Better than with what I have achieved with Linux for sure.
next up will be the firewire...hmmmm.
Onwards and upwards
Cheers
A

[PeterSt]

G'day Andrew,

Before I get blamed for wrong advices :

All will be using a Fireface though, and I am one of them.

... but none of them is using it as a DAC, which is what you probably perceived from what I said. The RME Fireface is always used as an outboard soundcard and passes through SPDIF to the audiophile DAC. I know, quite an expensive means to pass through SPDIF ...

Personally I'd never use the "pro" devices for a DAC. I guess that includes a Weiss ...
But then I am into non-oversampling (with reasons), so I would never end up at the pro devices by nature ...

Peter

[manisandher]

Hi All,

I had a problem getting my FF800 to work as a DAC (as opposed to simply an spdif passthrough device).

Neither of the following worked:
1. selecting 'Speakers RME Fireface 800' as the default speakers in Vista and selecting 'Primary Sound Device' in XX
2. selecting 'Speakers RME Fireface 800' in XX

In both of these cases, the sound was still being piped to the soundcard in my laptop (even if when NOT selected as the default device in Vista).

But selecting 'SPDIF Interface RME Fireface 800' did work, as did all the other various analogue and digital outputs.

The solution was to simply disable the in-build soundcard (there seems to be a conflict going on here).

Everything works fine now...

... and 0.9x-5b sounds very good indeed. (I'll post more about the sound when I receive a Weiss AFI1 interface to replace the FF800 very soon.)

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani !!!

You once anounced you got moving which would take you quite some time. I guess you now did, right ?

Personally I'd love to see your postings again !
I was quite on my own with the digicheck and all, lately.

[tricka]

Cool - I have XX HE playing in exclsive mode for the on board s/c: excellent.

The KRK drivers are Xp but vista compliant . I was hoping to use firewire and avoid the problems with rca spdif out - or is my understanding wrong and firewire just another form of spdif?

Spoke to Calibrator (thanks Russ) and I believe we agreed the easiest way would be to get a decent vista card that supported spdif eg the Julie or RME's and run spdif into my KRK.

Incidentally does  the REM interface support other non RME firewire devices? I understand they have their own bus transport protocols instead oif the usual 1394.

Oh Nos vs not NOS....well that is to me less of a philospical discussion but rather how well each approach is implemented. 

Thanks
Andrew

ps Calibratr mentioned a thread way back when that has some cmd line to get rid of the bloat wear in Vista..any idea off the top of your head where it is?

Thanks
A

[Calibrator]

ps Calibratr mentioned a thread way back when that has some cmd line to get rid of the bloat wear in Vista..any idea off the top of your head where it is?

Hi Andy,

the batch job is attached at the bottom of this post ...

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=548.msg4331#msg4331

If you look at the first post in that thread and read all the way thru you'll be as geeky as many of us at the end .. LOL

Cheers,

Russ

[PeterSt]

The KRK drivers are Xp but vista compliant . I was hoping to use firewire and avoid the problems with rca spdif out - or is my understanding wrong and firewire just another form of spdif?

Vista compliant : Yeah, this happens more often. But that is different from squeezing out all the stuff Vista has in it. So, in this case you are dealing with "WASAPI" (which is another means of producing sound, like DirectSound is another), and for that to go the explicit support is needed. The "compliant" can be seen as : it will run e.g. DirectSound on Vista like it does on XP. On that matter, Engine#1 and #2 will just do OK in Vista under those compliant devices.

Understanding Firewire and how it can carry SPDIF is not the easiest task. I may have been the first exploring this for audiophools' reasons (must have been 2005), and although in the pro world this all will be common stuff, for us this seems a strange combination of things which is far from intuitive.
It is best and most easy to just learn that it is so ... "Firewire can carry SPDIF". With this in mind, it is only a matter of getting it out at the other end of the cable.

A Firewire device which indeed shows all as should does help a lot of course. But think of this :
Once all the drivers are installed for such a device, and the device is Firewire connected to the PC, the PC shows all the sound devices. Amongst them is an SPDIF device, and to the user this is no different from thinking you have a coax (or toslink) cable going somewhere, and that at the other end an SPDIF connected device is hanging around. To make it even more clear : under XP the Fireface will show two SPDIF devices. One "normal" and one MME driven device. MME is a certain topology present under XP, but not there under Vista. Anyway, two SPDIF devices, and one cable only. It is sorted out within the Fireface (or within the driver).
Besides (for pro devices) ADAT devices will be there. ADAT is not different from SPDIF, apart from that it supports 8 channels per ADAT device instead of 2. Thus, when you'd choose an ADAT device, you'd be having 8 channels, and when you use the first 2, you again have "SPDIF". This comes down to the capability of using 4 SPDIF channels onto the one device. This can actually be used for e.g. DTS if the DTS stream is decoded in software, and the 6 channels can be output over ADAT. In (e.g.) the Fireface they are all available, and you could decide to pass the two main channeles through as SPDIF to the audiophile DAC, and let the other 4 play by the Fireface, and connect the mid, subwoofer etc. to the analogue out there.

Spoke to Calibrator (thanks Russ) and I believe we agreed the easiest way would be to get a decent vista card that supported spdif eg the Julie or RME's and run spdif into my KRK.

To my own experience (and I'm sure Russ's too) the Juli@ is a good option. And far less expensive than a FF.

Incidentally does  the REM interface support other non RME firewire devices? I understand they have their own bus transport protocols instead oif the usual 1394.

I am not aware of this. If you mean, use it as a network hub ... that won't go, because there are no Firewire outputs on it.

HTH a bit !
Peter

[tricka]

Thank you Peter and Russ
that explained things nicely. Apologies it was late at night when I typed. What I meant to say was RME use their own bus protocols for 1394 transmission..but will they work with any firewire device (if you get the RME firwire PCI interface).
I will continue on the journey
Cheers
Andrew
ps I will buy a copy today.

[PeterSt]

Hahaha, I still don't understand. Does RME have something like a PCI Firewire interface ? maybe they have, but I don't think so ...

You would have

a. A random PCI Firewire interface card, or the one provided by the motherboard (never good !).

b. A random Firewire device connected to it. Could be a disk, a sat-receiver, an outboard soundcard, an RME Fireface ...

I really wouldn't know where RME would use their own 1394 protocol. Maybe they do, but then it goes unnoticed. To me anyway.

[tricka]

yup
have a look here: http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdsp_pci_interface.php
gosh back to prob's tonight - no issues with engine 2 - runs the Ergo easily...but average sound quality. Having a nightmare with the 3....funny was working A -OK last night.
Might be time to get a RME 400 and be done with it...
The Engine 3 is what I am after..

[PeterSt]

That is not a PCI interface card ... it is a DSP (Digital Sound Processing) system which outputs its data over normal Firewire cable. This is indeed no Firewire protocol ("Cardbus" instead). But what to do with it ? nothing ...

But what happened to your Engine3 stuff ?

[tricka]

dunno.....just stopped working
I mucked around with Vista yesterday trying to tidy it up ...so that will be the problem for sure.
Is the FF400 that much better than a Juli@ for transport duties?
Thanks
Andrew

[PeterSt]

Honestly ? I don't know. What I do know is that I am using it right now for other reasons (never mind which) and net I am very satisfied with it.
I also know that - coincidentally - Russ is using it, which btw is one of the reasons I dared buy it in the first place. So ...

So this indeed is an internal (PC) soundcard, but right now it is my choice. Maybe the FF does better, but keep in mind the price tag. Remember, I have both, and I still use the Juli@. No warranty for you because I use it differently, but the "PC noise" which would come from it, does not bother me. IMHO it is not a big deal to try it for 120 euros (a FF400 is a 1000 more).

YMMV.

[tricka]

Yup you are quite right
If Russ recommends it that is good enough for me. I've just bought one. Should have it in a day or two.
Thanks
Andrew

[manisandher]

The solution was to simply disable the in-build soundcard (there seems to be a conflict going on here).

Andrew, have you tried disabling your internal SC? Before I did this, I couldn't get my FF800 to work properly with XXHE 0.9x-5b.

Peter, as I mentioned before, there is something weird going on here. Without disabling the internal SC, even when 'Speakers RME Fireface800' is selected, the signal is passed to the internal SC. Selecting any of the other RME outputs work fine, just not 'Speakers RME Fireface800'.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hmm ...

Mani, what does the DAC Test show for sound device on the second line of the report ?

FYI : Selecting the sound device for Engine#3 is just new, and things may be wrong.

On quite some other note (but maybe not) ... I now see that I don't have Speakers for the RME. I only recognize them from XP drivers ...
See below. It should be Aanalog etc. ...

[manisandher]

OK, so here are some images:

1) my devices
2) my XXHE settings
3) DAC Test with internal sound card DISABLED
4) DAC Test with internal sound card ENABLED (note: I have NOT changed the settings in XXHE - I still have the RME chosen)

With the internal sound card enabled, XXHE stops recognizing the RME (but it is still set as the default in Vista). If I play a track, it comes through my internal speakers.

Weird, no?

Mani.

[manisandher]

Sorry, last image is wrong - this was the result after enabling the SigmaTel, but before rebooting.

After enabling and rebooting, this is the result. Again, the RME is still selected in XXHE settings.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Yup, that would be my fault. I don't know how or what, but it must be.

Thanks.
And Andrew, SORRY ! you will be dealing with the same problem I suppose.


I still wonder where you get that "Loudspeakers" from. Mani, this might be related to your HDCD culprit thing ?
You are using recent drivers of course ? (like not over 2 years old )

[manisandher]

No, nothing to do with HDCD - I'm using just the FF800 as the DAC in my system 1).

My system 2) will use the Weiss AFI1 when I get it next week and feed my HDCD-enabled DAC via dual-wire AES/EBU.

I'm using pretty recent drivers from RME (v2.91 from 31/10/08) and my Vista is bang up to date. I'll try the latest RME drivers (v2.95) over the weekend, but I can't see that they will make a difference.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Nah, don't bother. My drivers are several months old by now.
My Vista is still SP0 though. So possibly *that* has changed things. Otoh, it seems more logic to me that RME changed the names. That is, I guess that is where the are coming from.
Dunno. Will upgrade my own drivers which are from June 2008.

Anyway, the problem is on my part. I figure it is related to the " /" in Speakers / Headphones, knowing that " /" has a special meaning in the C language for strings, and the strangenesses I apply to get those names out from the one program to the other. Will fix it.

[PeterSt]

Upgraded to the January drivers (and 2.70 firmware), and ... hey, I do have loudspeakers.
I wonder where they sit.
Maybe the monitoring stuff.

[PeterSt]

For those who want to help and try (and have the problem) :

Below is an XXEngine3.exe. Save you old XXEngine3.exe (e.g. rename to .old), and unzip below zip to your current 0.9x-5b folder.
Please try whether the Device Selection now works properly. It should.

If not, please post the test01.log file which will be your the current 0.9x-5b folder. Note that this log file will be overwritten at each attempt of playback.

Note that you cannot see this is a new version. Only the file date/time denotes it.

Thanks a lot,
Peter

[Leo]

I have not followed this thread too closely but if the question is can I select another than the default sounddriver it seems to work for me. If my rme spdif is default I can make it work with another driver i.e. rme speaker.

However I have not found how to get RME spdif producing any sound, this is not related to xx I think, just finding out how to select this within the RME software. It was allways RME loudspeaker for me. ANy tips on the settings for the RME mixer ?

Leo

[PeterSt]

Leo, believe it or not, but I can't stand that mixer. If something has to be setup, something new, I ask my wife. Does this mean women logic is required here ? maybe. But I can hardly ever make sense out of it. Sorry ...
Just try it out; Explain how things work, and let her choose a box. Overhere that works ... 

[Leo]

I will try this very worthwhile and insightfull suggestion

[PeterSt]

Any news on this one ? http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=775.msg5723#msg5723

Thanks.
Peter

[tricka]

Hi Peter
I am awaiting the Juli before trying further with XX High End.
The onboard chippy is just too flakey to bother with - I have a suspicion the latest Vista drivers are just vista compliant drivers so can only really run AE2 with any success - which is about the same as native vista to me with the onboard chippy so no advantage there. Occassionally I get AE3 but it is flakey. The patch E3 file made no difference.
Interestingly I have been playing with linux mpd server ware and sonata front end with great success. It really is a great audio player as well. Plus a great benefit of linux is you don't have to do flips and twists to get close to zero cpu etc load.
What I look forward to is comparing XX High End w/linux mpd etc.
Cheers
Andrew

[tricka]

Hi mate
righto - I have 0.9x-4 installed and working in exclusive mode with the Juli@ over spdif to the Ergo. No problem at all with the right drivers installed. Now just the usual spdif issues ha ha. Sounds very good however.
I 've had a play with 0.9x-5b - it's a no go without disabling the onboard s/c in the bios (which is a nuisance as we use the hdmi out for the telly at the moment). That is XX High End defaults to the HDMI out when plugged in regardless of what is selected.
Cheers
Andrew

[Calibrator]

G'day Andrew,

which drivers are you using for the Juli@ ?

I had been using v1.04 for months and I noticed a few days back that there was v1.05 recently released. I have been using the latter for a few days now with no ill effect. Couldn't find any doco on what the new version brings forth but 'generally' a later version should be more stable.

I also have a hdmi device available ( via the video card ) but have no issues playing 0.9x-5b. Have you tried disabling your HDMI entry in the drivers manager ... that's what I have done. Even with it enabled I can choose the Juli@ SPDIF entry in the output setting of XXHE.

I presume you have the "Digital Output Device (SPDIF) ~ Juli@ Audio Working" ticked in the Sound/Playback from within your Control Panel? While checking the latter, check that when you highlight the Juli@ SPDIF entry and choose 'Properties', that under the Supported Formats, you have all sample rates ticked, and that under the 'Advanced' tab, you have ticks in the Exclusive Mode options.

Can't think of anything else at the moment that may be preventing 0.9x-5b from working.

Cheers,

Russ

[PeterSt]

Andrew, can you show me the test01.log file then please ?
(http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=775.msg5723#msg5723)

[tricka]

Hi Peter & Russ
right-ee-oo....0.9x-5b all up and working: thanks 
I installed 1.05 straight away as it is their sp1 driver (I think).
The trick was to disable the HDMI then make sure i had all the formats ticked (whoops - only 48 was!) then no problem. I'm just running through a bunch of test tracks now to test all the 16/44 - 24/96 range and so far no problems.
Ummm Russ...how do I get the HDMI back on...we use it at the moment for the telly ---it's disappeared from sight.
Ta muchly
Andew
ps Peter do you still want logs or only if something plays up??

[Calibrator]

Ummm Russ...how do I get the HDMI back on...we use it at the moment for the telly ---it's disappeared from sight.

hmmm ... it might be as easy as flipping a registry entry OFF and ON , and if that's the case a batch(s) job with a shortcut(s) on your desktop could be created to facilitate that.

I have no need for HDMI currently as I said so I had it DISABLED in the drivers manager section, but even with it ENABLED XXHE worked fine. It seems to me that your onboard S/C HDMI component works differently to the one here on my video card ( an ATI HD3450 ).

I'll see if I can see where in the registry things get changed when the HDMI driver gets ENABLED/DISABLED. Could open up a can of worms though .. hehe

Cheers,

Russ

[Calibrator]

I'll see if I can see where in the registry things get changed when the HDMI driver gets ENABLED/DISABLED. Could open up a can of worms though .. hehe

There is a squillion references to the HDMI device in the registry and I'd be kidding myself if I could determine how they all interact.

My advice would be to toggle the device ENABLED via the normal Computer Management/Device Manager route per normal when you want to watch TV, and DISABLE it the same way when you want to listen to XXHE, although I'm not sure why you can't chose the JULI@ SPDIF in the output settings. This should work in the interim until a better process is worked out. Don't suppose your video card has HDMI perchance ?

Cheers,

Russ

[PeterSt]

ps Peter do you still want logs or only if something plays up??

Well, by now you guys are more experienced on it than I am, and it looks like HDMI is special somewhere ?
So yes. I need to see whether I internally don't deal correctly with the selecting of that device or whatever it is that happens. If you look at that log file yourself you'd see that nothing much is in there, but it should at least show which device *I* select. So, if that is the correct one, it can only be mr Gates doing it to you. So, no matter you have work arounds by know, I want to be sure it is not me.

If you send it, please tell accurately which device you selected from XX.
Thanks ...

[tricka]

coolio 
Oh silly me ...I just enabled the "show disabled devices" on the playback devices and up HDMI popped...easy peasey.

I've attached 2 failures with the HDMI enabled and one success with the HDMI disabled (I think...it's getting late). 

Awesome sound quality I am getting through my HD650's - zero noise floor  ; exceptional particularly on a cpu/ram hog like Vista: I like it best with services disabled and a low Q1 (although makes it a tad unstable).
Latency doesn't appear to matter so much for playback (to me). 48 induces a lot more cpu load etc than 256 so I figure it's much of a muchness.
Well done Peter...you Sir are a veritable genius .
Russ..mine is an onboard 3200 chippy with integrated hdmi.
Really in a week or so when my stereo is up and running again I won't need the HDMI any way.
Cheers
Andrew
ps .9-05b sounds better than .9-04 to my very junior XX High End ears...

[PeterSt]

It is getting late ? come on now ...

Anyway ... these are not the test01.log files I wanted ... sorry ...

Again, in this post there's a new XXEngine3, and that will produce it. Install it over your current 0.9x-5b folder and press play briefly for the selected audio device. The test01.log will be in your current XX folder then.

Here : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=775.msg5723#msg5723

[manisandher]

Peter,

Here's my Test01.log file (with my internal SC disabled).

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hey, thanks Mani. But this is just working correctly, right ?
Now what about when the internal SC is *not* disabled ... Do you still have problems ? if yes, I wish to see the test01.log from *that* !

Sorry to be a pain ...

[manisandher]

With internal sc enabled:

This looks like it's all working now... for the FF800 at least.

Should we start using this Engine#3 now? Will the logs automatically write over each other?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Ha, great !!
Yes, you can keep on using that XXEngine3 version. Yes, the logs will over write eachother each time you press play.

But I will try to put up a 0.9x-6 tonight with everything in there. So for others, don't bother for now.

Thank you Mani, you were a great help, as usual ...
Peter

[tricka]

Hi Peter
all fixed - juli plays when selected with HDMI enabled - DAC test below.
I'll post logs if any more issues.
Thanks
Andrew

[PeterSt]

Andrew, Good !
The early night really did well, right ?

[tricka]

Yes Peter it did! Another one tonight.

Really OT now (sorry) but after discussions with Russ this afternoon (and his invaluable help in setting up the hot keys and library gallery   ) I see why you have set it up as you have. At first glance it is abit counter intuitive...but with sound like this who cares about minor inconveniences like organising a gallery.

The SQ with services stoppped is >>> than without
And I rather like setting a playlist to play and sitting back - it's like playing an LP.

I experimented with all sorts of q's etc and find in my system (Juli (latency= 48) spdif out to the Ergo-HD650's at the mo) I like your set up of Q's=4,0,0,0,0 Scheme 3. Having said that it all depends I suspect on your DAC and how it interfaces.
I'm interested in your I2S interface...I wonder how you did that.....hmmm.

Thanks again Peter and at my end Russ!

Cheers
Andrew