Setting up the ultimate system!

[OMF]

Hello!

As I am about to step into the world of PC playback - I am opening this thread for feedback/advice.

I do have a plan....but all advices are welcome! And I still have some issues that need to be sorted out.

This thread on a Norwegian hifiweb is about my system and shows the path I have followed up to today!
 http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?topic=11130.0

(I also see that there are a few other fellow Norwegian audiophiles here!)

So....my system will be - and I start backwards:

The Overkill Audio Finale speakers
(Three way, no passive crossover, Manger headunit +500Hz, Open baffle mid bass 150-500Hz, Sealed box 12Inch Beyma subwoofer)

3 x Dynamic Precision DP A1S
Balanced poweramp, 2 x 250W, extremely good specs (and sound)

Digital Audio Denmark AX24 converter
6 channel balanced DA converter.

Lynx AES 16SRC PCIE interface.

XX High End
Audiolense room correction software!

This is where I am currently - and I am trying to set this up.

I would like to have two different ways of playing music:
Primary source - XX High End, playing my ripped music on the dedicated audiop PC:
Secondary source - Output from a Behringer DEQ2496 - connected by AES/EBU to my Lynx PCI card (this is for radio, TV and a Cd drive for CDs)

There are however a few challenges - I will adress them with numbers:


1 - The Audiolense software generates a filter file - which in my case also includes the active crossover. So - i need to somehow "play" this filter in a digital loop in the Lynx mixer? Someone has tipped me about Bidule..? What is consider to be the best SW for this kind of "loop"?

2 - I need a remote for the system! What is the best SW to operate the Music PC from a remote laptop?

I believe that is my two main questions to start out with......

Best regards
OMF

[PeterSt]

Hei!

(I also see that there are a few other fellow Norwegian audiophiles here!)

Well, I can tell you a couple of hundred are hidden outside the forum, and Norwegian people must be very modest.
Then I looked at that link you provided ...

in the world of phools and piano black !

Now, let's see ...

1 - The Audiolense software generates a filter file - which in my case also includes the active crossover. So - i need to somehow "play" this filter in a digital loop in the Lynx mixer? Someone has tipped me about Bidule..? What is consider to be the best SW for this kind of "loop"?

This is what Pedal does : Re: World's first NOS 24/192 filterless DAC ?.
Although he uses the RME Fireface, I guess you can do it with the Lynx as well, although it requires a loopback in software (though in the soundcard) of which I know the Fireface is very easy on (I have one myself).
Maybe Pedal can jump in and elaborate a bit (if necessary at all).

2 - I need a remote for the system! What is the best SW to operate the Music PC from a remote laptop?

The most easy would be RDC (Remote Desktop Connection) the higher Vista versions (running on the audio PC) will provide. However, you must be confident it doesn't disturb sound. I never use it because I think it influences (just theory !), but if it doesn't, it's by far the most friendly to control XXHighEnd.
Do *not* put Firewire in the audio PC, but do that in another PC in the network. If you don't have another one, better use a cable. WiFi is no good in an audio PC.

Hope this helps,
Peter

[manisandher]

Hello!

As I am about to step into the world of PC playback - I am opening this thread for feedback/advice.

Hi OMF,

Good to hear the Finales are still in action - which is more than can be said for Overkill itself, right?

I can't really help you with your enquiry - a while ago I decided that I would do all my filtering in the analogue domain, hence why I use a couple of Pass Labs XVR1 x-overs. There is a 'rule of thumb' that I read on another site that I like very much; "analogue can't do delay, digital can't do filtering". If you've managed to overcome this, well done!

But in any event, XXHE is definitely the way to go...

... Now, if only I could find a decent filter-less DAC... Peter, how's the NOS1 coming along???


Mani

[Telstar]

There is a 'rule of thumb' that I read on another site that I like very much; "analogue can't do delay, digital can't do filtering". If you've managed to overcome this, well done!

Why? AFAIK digital can do everything analog can and better

[manisandher]

Why? I think for the same reasons that XXHE sounds better than other SW players... why filter-less DACs sound better than filtered (with hi-res, at least). IOW, there's a lot more going on in the digital domain than we know... but that the likes of Peter are exploring.

In my real experience (i.e. not theory) my XVR1s have literally trounced digital x-overs like the DEQX. Actually, the difference in SQ was embarrasing...

I don't intend to sell the D70 - I love it. Also, the Pacific Microsonics stuff is really studio gear, and not designed for consumer use. It may not fare very well and may need to be shipped back to California for servicing from time to time... in which case I'll need something else to listen to. If I don't have a NOS1 by then, the D70 will have to do.

Actually, I'd love to do the following DAC comparison: NOS1 vs. Model 2 vs. D70

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani, please call people by their nick name, unless they express themselves otherwise.
Thanks.

Wow, that's the second time in two days while day before yesterday was the first time in three years.

[PeterSt]

Why? AFAIK digital can do everything analog can and better

Hi Telstar,

This is not completely true, or otherwise it may be very difficult to mimic in digital what analogue can by itself. This is about impedance response, which is not going along with frequency (not linear, may bump, etc.). Sometimes this "feature" is explicitly used to create a certain desired output, while you wouldn't know where to begin with digital.

I (think I) know, you are thinking about steepness of filters and all, which can be done in digital very easy. But even that may not be the good thing to do, and e.g. infitly fast roll off (which would be possible in digital) will not sound good.

So ... thus far I have in mind it can be done digitally, but I would not be surprised if I fail on it.
Mind you, this is about crossovers. Filtering like a DAC needs is a complete different matter ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

... Now, if only I could find a decent filter-less DAC... Peter, how's the NOS1 coming along???

Well, coincidentally tonight there's a "big test" with others, to see whether I'm a fool on thinking that I have created the best DAC-output *ever*, or whether I am just right and you will pay 20K for it easily.
Nah, don't be shocked, it will go for the fraction of that price.

After tonight I will eloborate some more on the main thread *if* I am right that what I have done here, blows away everything on this earth (the sound is a 1000% different from anything you've ever heard, and it is so different that I'm afraid I just like it, and nobody else will).
For those who caught a glimps of it already, yes, this is compared to the DAC itself from a week back.
And for insiders (yes, they too exist), this is BEFORE the big change to come, hopefully next week.

Peter

[Telstar]

Mani, please call people by their nick name, unless they express themselves otherwise.
Thanks.

Wow, that's the second time in two days while day before yesterday was the first time in three years.

For me it's ok to be called by First name (referring to the other thread with Roy).

[Telstar]

In my real experience (i.e. not theory) my XVR1s have literally trounced digital x-overs like the DEQX. Actually, the difference in SQ was embarrasing...

Good to hear. ATM, I'm deciding what to do for my speakers. I'll lookup the XVR. If you want, send me a pm with some link and infos.

[Telstar]

Well, coincidentally tonight there's a "big test" with others, to see whether I'm a fool on thinking that I have created the best DAC-output *ever*, or whether I am just right and you will pay 20K for it easily.
Nah, don't be shocked, it will go for the fraction of that price.

After tonight I will eloborate some more on the main thread *if* I am right that what I have done here, blows away everything on this earth (the sound is a 1000% different from anything you've ever heard, and it is so different that I'm afraid I just like it, and nobody else will).
For those who caught a glimps of it already, yes, this is compared to the DAC itself from a week back.
And for insiders (yes, they too exist), this is BEFORE the big change to come, hopefully next week.

Peter

T E A S E R !

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Well, coincidentally tonight there's a "big test" with others, to see whether I'm a fool on thinking that I have created the best DAC-output *ever*, or whether I am just right and you will pay 20K for it easily.
Nah, don't be shocked, it will go for the fraction of that price.

After tonight I will eloborate some more on the main thread *if* I am right that what I have done here, blows away everything on this earth (the sound is a 1000% different from anything you've ever heard, and it is so different that I'm afraid I just like it, and nobody else will).
For those who caught a glimps of it already, yes, this is compared to the DAC itself from a week back.
And for insiders (yes, they too exist), this is BEFORE the big change to come, hopefully next week.

Peter

T E A S E R !

1000% TEASER

[OMF]

Hello all!

Thanks for your feedback!

Mani – Well the financial meltdown was though on Derek – so Overkill is put on ice. I do however see that he is very active on some DIY webpages – and we do speak regularly on matters of hifi and enviroment! I hope he will be able to get back into hifi – he brought a loot of good ideas to the table!

I have been using digital filters for some while (DEQX) and would not consider going back to analog. I am confident that this new PC set up with Audiolense will bring things one big step further……

I see you have quite a few discussions regarding DA converters….

This is my choice:
 http://www.digitalaudio.dk/

If I should choose differently in the future – I would assume it would be a design based on some of the new DAC chips with extremely good specs…(Sabre..?).

Peter – thanks for you feedback and for watching my privacy – but I do not mind to be called by my first name!

Hmm…I think I will call Pedal later today about the plug-in…It will not be the first time that I receive some mentoring from his side – however – Pedal is lagging behind ( )…no digital XO…..any plans to implement that soon Pedal…?

And – we share the same enthusiasm for some very special Norwegians amps…

Best regards
Ole Martin “OMF”

[Telstar]

Mani – Well the financial meltdown was though on Derek – so Overkill is put on ice. I do however see that he is very active on some DIY webpages – and we do speak regularly on matters of hifi and enviroment! I hope he will be able to get back into hifi – he brought a loot of good ideas to the table!

And – we share the same enthusiasm for some very special Norwegians amps…

Best regards
Ole Martin “OMF”

Norwegian? hmm I saw that brand but dont remember the name!

BTW, I had some mail exchange with Derek and he's a very nice guy. I wish things go better for him.

[manisandher]

I'll lookup the XVR. If you want, send me a pm with some link and infos.

(Peter, are you happy for me to place this link?)

Here's some info about the XVR1 x-over: http://passlabs.com/pdf/product%20lit/xvr1_lit.pdf

Cons:
- not cheap: were around USD 5-6K each when I bought mine about 5 years ago
- only 2-way: you'll need to buy a pair for 3-way operation and 'daisy chain' the output of one channel to the input of another
- not suitable for any sort of correction
- not sure if they're still in production
- I've never seen one for sale on used market (and I know why!)

Pros:
- very transparent
- much better than passive x-over from speakers (Wilson Benesch Chimeras)
- much, much better than DEQX 2.6P

Hope this helps.

This is my choice:
 http://www.digitalaudio.dk/

Looks very interesting. Didn't you used to have a Meitner??? In any event, I realise that you need a 6 channel DAC, right?

As I said earlier, if you've managed to get digital x-overs to work well, then that's great. I just never did - and the XVR1s were a breath of fresh air...

Mani

[pedal]

Welcome here my friend to the Show That Never Ends; PC-audio. [Emerson, Lake and Palmer]. Or as a famous person once said: PC-audio is like driving an old car. Always something to be fixed…

OMF is building up a very ambitious system, with both the best hardware and the best software components. Soon he will have a dedicated big listening room too, that lucky bastard. The heart of the system is the Norwegian DRC system Audiolense, which I also have implemented successfully. Audiolense is generating a soundfile (an “inverse” of everything to be corrected according to mic measurement/user eq/etc). The signal must run “trough” this sound-file, before entering the DAC.

With media players like WMP or Foobar, this is easy, because they have options for plug-in modules.
Unfortunately XX doesn’t. So you have to create a digital loop in the software-chain somewhere, and use a programme like Console or Bidule which accommodates plug-ins where the Audiolense soundfile can be read.
I managed this in the “Mixer”-program which is included with my FF400 external soundcard. However OMF is using a LYNX internal soundcard. I don’t know it, but probably there are similar features also there?

I’m not an expert in this field. I only pretend to be. Actually it is my kid brother who set up everything, he-he, with help from local guru Stig-Erik Tangen. Perhaps I downplayed the problems waiting in this field, but OMF should be up to the task, anyway. Also it’s too late for him to turn now, anyway, after everything is purchased. [Evil laughter].

As a starting point, I would check with Lynx usergroup or customer service “how to create a digital loop inside the soundcards software, to manage a 6 channel hi-rez plug-in”.

[SeVeReD]

The XVR1 is what I've used for a few years now as a xover, and until Peter finally got the volume control in XXHE (omg happy day that was) it was also my preamp!  Imagine having to change 4 volume knobs every time you wanted to change vol... hehe.  I got pretty good with it but, thank goodness Peter pulled off fairly small volume steps; I'd sure hate to go back.  The XVR1 is remarkably flexible in xover settings (have to change jumpers inside) for an analog xover... I don't know if there's anything like it. (I'll have to peak inside to remember what my settings are... it took me about a year to zero in what settings I like).  Being an 'insider' at the time I got it for $2500.  I was told it was made mainly for speaker designers to zero in on what xover settings they'd like to build with parts.  I've thought about the audiolense stuff that pedal uses...I do have a Fireface 800 which would do the trick, but,,, I do fear running any extra stuff/programs on the computer/transport.  Seems like every thing going on in my computer makes a difference (guys w/ FF, sorry, but shut off the mixer when playing back music).  The XVR1 is great for now; maybe the future/Peter holds the key for a digital xover (how bout xxhe on one computer and a xover on another??? eheheh).
Sounds like I could use some Brain Salad Surgery eh?

I'll lookup the XVR. If you want, send me a pm with some link and infos.

(Peter, are you happy for me to place this link?)

Here's some info about the XVR1 x-over: http://passlabs.com/pdf/product%20lit/xvr1_lit.pdf

Cons:
- not cheap: were around USD 5-6K each when I bought mine about 5 years ago
- only 2-way: you'll need to buy a pair for 3-way operation and 'daisy chain' the output of one channel to the input of another
- not suitable for any sort of correction
- not sure if they're still in production
- I've never seen one for sale on used market (and I know why!)

Pros:
- very transparent
- much better than passive x-over from speakers (Wilson Benesch Chimeras)
- much, much better than DEQX 2.6P

Hope this helps.

This is my choice:
 http://www.digitalaudio.dk/

Looks very interesting. Didn't you used to have a Meitner??? In any event, I realise that you need a 6 channel DAC, right?

As I said earlier, if you've managed to get digital x-overs to work well, then that's great. I just never did - and the XVR1s were a breath of fresh air...

Mani

[PeterSt]

Sounds like I could use some Brain Salad Surgery eh?

Oh yes, you are sure up to that. But when you wake up you will find that xover to recide in the DAC ...

uploaded to there by you

and changed by you when needed

[SeVeReD]

Sounds like I could use some Brain Salad Surgery eh?

Oh yes, you are sure up to that. But when you wake up you will find that xover to recide in the DAC ...

uploaded to there by you

and changed by you when needed

ok now I'm   
so maybe there will be an XVR1 on the used market sometime?
volume to be uploaded to dac too? with multi analog outputs? hmm

[OMF]

Hi again!

The XVR1 shure look like a fantastic product to start experimenting with active XO. However - from a teoretical point of view (which for me is the most important) I see no advantage!

I had some help from the developer of Audiolense yesterday - and we installed Console. And I am pretty shure that my "new" system will be up an running this weekend.

I must say (this will probably cause a riot in here... ) that in my opinion the advantages of doing EQ, XO and group delay correction lossless and very accurate in the digital domain - is far far more important than any extra strain put on the computer. And with the output from the Lynx AES  16e SRC synced with the Masterclock in the DAD (less than 10ppm jitter) - I am shure I will be fine!

(A short questions here.....How is the connection between XXHE and my Lynx card working....where can i set the buffer size...?)

Best regards
OMF

[manisandher]

Sounds very cool OMF. I especially like the fact that you're using the DAC as the master clock and syncing everything to it - I really don't like asynchronous anything... or upsampling for that matter... or 1-bit DSD (but that's another subject!).

When I was doing something similar (but far less sophisticated) a few years ago, the biggest issue for me was controlling the volume. How are you doing this?

Mani.

[manisandher]

so maybe there will be an XVR1 on the used market sometime?

If there is, let me know - I'm looking to go 4-way... all analogue!

Mani.

[manisandher]

The XVR1 shure look like a fantastic product to start experimenting with active XO. However - from a teoretical point of view (which for me is the most important) I see no advantage!

Yep, from a theoretical point of view, 300dB/octave filters should sound great. Try it with your DEQX and see what happens. I remember asking DEQX why they recommend sticking below 90dB/octave. They said it sounds better, but could give no theoretical reason why.

In my 'real' experience, nothing other than 6dB/octave sounds right... Of course, this creates all sorts of other issues, but then that's hifi for you - just full of compromises 

Mani.

[OMF]

When I was doing something similar (but far less sophisticated) a few years ago, the biggest issue for me was controlling the volume. How are you doing this?

Well - I can do it in the player (XXHE), but I would propably try to keep the S/N as high as possible when doing the correction filter - so I would use the Lynx Mixer (SW) and adjust volume on the output (Digitally of course - 24 bit)....In that way the volume control will be the final element before the digital stream heads out to the DAC. I also have the option to adjust gain - both on my power amps (3 steps) and the DAC output - so that I can make sure that 0dB output from equals my maximum wanted SPL - making the digital attunuation as small as possible.


BR
OMF

[OMF]

Yep, from a theoretical point of view, 300dB/octave filters should sound great. Try it with your DEQX and see what happens. I remember asking DEQX why they recommend sticking below 90dB/octave. They said it sounds better, but could give no theoretical reason why.

Well - 300dB/Octave is just silly.
The two driver units would most likely have very different dispersion patterns at the XO frequency - and that steep XO will create a huge step in the energy respons of the speaker - and the "in-room respons". However - I am quite certain it will sound better than a equally steep passive filter...

As for eveything else - you have to "work with" the technology - not against it.
This is not my area of expertice - but steep filters creates ringing as far as I can tell....surely for 300dB/Oct. So - I will not set up my system with anything close to those values - maximum 60db/Octave....for the bass - certainly less.

I have deliverately built my system to "work with" the technology - and if this ongoing upgrade - from Cd drive/DEQX to PC/Audiolense/DAD does what it should do on the paper - I can certainly say I would never look back. And even though I have heard quite a few systems - none of them are even close to the perceived SQ in my system in current state!  (with my preferences that is...)

BR
OMF

[Telstar]

Left and right filters shouldnt be the same freq and steep. Each should be tailored on the driver properties.

I didnt experiment yet, but I have read a lot and the dispute between IIR and FIR, it's a matter o taste or better, what our ears perceive.

Looks like I have to play with both, which means trying the best software XOs that I know of, that is acourate, audiolense and thuneau. And pay for all of them, because the demos don't do sh*t, pardon my french.

A problem that is present now with using XXHE is that it does NOT rely on asio, so, after you play with Console or any other asio-based signal router/processor, you cant do anything about that. You can apply those filters to foobar with asio output.

This unless you can do at driver-level, such as with the fireface totalmix. I'd like to know if the Lynx has similar software but I dont think so. Also, i'd like to know about the internal (cheaper) RME cards.

[Telstar]

Sounds like I could use some Brain Salad Surgery eh?

Oh yes, you are sure up to that. But when you wake up you will find that xover to recide in the DAC ...

uploaded to there by you

and changed by you when needed

Gimme gimme gimme!

[JuiceHifi]

Looks like I have to play with both, which means trying the best software XOs that I know of, that is acourate, audiolense and thuneau. And pay for all of them, because the demos don't do sh*t, pardon my french.

You don't have to pay for Audiolense unless you choose to use it in the end. There is a satisfaction guarantee attached. The purchase fee is like a deposit; You can get a 100% refund if you are not satisfied.

Or you can send me a mail and maybe we can find a way where I can generate a set of trial filters for you. But that will only be a first taste, and not likely to produce the best sound you can achieve with Audiolense. Crossover optimization introduces quite a few significant variables compared to tweaking a set of passive speakers.

[Telstar]

Or you can send me a mail and maybe we can find a way where I can generate a set of trial filters for you. But that will only be a first taste, and not likely to produce the best sound you can achieve with Audiolense. Crossover optimization introduces quite a few significant variables compared to tweaking a set of passive speakers.

Thanks that would be nice. Waiting for Peter to finish the DAC, though
For now i'll play with the dcx.

[han]

Hi there,

Since I'm the very happy owner of the Weiss Minerva DAC, I chose Firewire, being the best connection with my PC (according to Daniel Weiss and my own very ears...).

My question to you all: Is there anybody out there who did compare different Firewire cables (they range from very cheap to as expensive as my dedicated music computer....). Did anyone hear differences in SQ using simple ot better cables? Theory is that there can't be a difference but in Audio world nothing is rational I believe...

Greetz, Han