Conveniently Randomize, how ? (0.9y-4)

[PeterSt]

Because it is not the most obvious how to go about, plus it thus far always has been a kind of awkwardish to randomize, here's a small outlay on how to do this in a convenient and fast fashion. Notice that many more options and combinations are possible, and this is just the most "iPod like" one.

Note : I'll add pictures later.


Step one : Getting prepared

In order to later randomize quickly (like playing in 10-15 seconds) you must prepare a few things. These things come off handy anyway (you will learn), so it is good to do them. And, keep in mind, this is about just one way of randomizing; other ways won't need this preparation.

- Activate the Library Area (hence click the tab).
- Untick the Chk checbox when it's checked. Because, a. this is necessary in order to process a large number of Library Items (otherwise it will be far too slow) and b. you won't be using Checkboxes for selection during this process.

Think of the "genre" folders you may have you may want to use for randomizing. Whether they are the physical original music folders or Galleries does not matter. Pick one by means of the "..." button at the bottom or via the Embedded Explorer at the left.
To keep in mind : I talk "genres" here, because it usually is not the best thing to hear hiphop pass by along with Vivaldi.

Now replace the default "A" for Albums with the "T" for tracks in that little box (see picture above). Next click Search.
Depending on how large the folder is this may take a while, because all the tracks in there will be collected, and presented to you in the Library Area. Might you have a 10,000 albums, no problem, but expect over 100,000 tracks to be there. That may take a minute or two.

Now, just because this may take two minutes, we are going to save the result as a Saved Result List. You could call the List Rock Tracks if this is about rock as a genre, so you will know later. Rightclick on the small F button to get there.

Step two : Get the tracks to randomize

Ha, but we just done that ? yes, true, but this assumes it now is "tomorrow", and helps you understand why Step one was important.

We are going to randomize some rock, and we want to do that fast. Allright, so we are going to re-load that Save Result List containing our Rock tracks.

Ah, you see, these 100,000 tracks are there in 0.2 seconds. Good (ok ok, in my case that's 41979 tracks).

Although anything being in the Library Area will be the base for randomizing, this is the fastest means for huge quantities as the base (the larger the base, the more surprised you will be what comes along for actual playback). Note that "huge" easily can be a million tracks.


Step three : Randomize

Before you forget, you may want to click Clear in order to clear the Playlist Area.

Now, rightclick on any of the Items visible in the Library Area. Which one you click is not important.
Go to Play each ... and choose Randomly. From there, go to the combobox at the bottom, and select AutoSelect. This latter means that the system is going to select the Items to randomize (don't read this again, or you won't understand ).

Now go to the "Enter number to randomize" box, and there enter the number you expect to play in this session. Remember, don't make it very much longer than you expect to play, because in a few seconds you will be starting playback, and as always the Playlist has to be prepared (converted etc.), and the longer it is, the more time it takes. Of course I expect Unattended playback, which is advised for the best sound quality; if you are going to play Attended, the output amount doesn't matter much, but keep in mind that for each track to appear in the Playlist Area, the Coverart must be collected. On this matter, 40 tracks will take about two times the time needed for 20 tracks.

Let's say you chose 40 tracks to output to the Playlist Area. Now you are ready to click Go.

What will happen next is that the system first selects 40 tracks out of the, say, 8000, you have in the Library Area for the genre you chose before; These 40 tracks will be randomized and output to the Playlist Area.

Important to understand : Depending on how the genre you chose is physically organized on the disks you have (now assuming the genre is held in a Gallery), the tracks selected for playback may be spread over all the disks you have, and they all have to spin up when spun down. This takes time ! Thus, when you have 4 disks, and each take 7 seconds to spinup, you will be waiting for 28 seconds for the spinup only. Nothing to do about that !
But if the disks were spinning already, you will find your 40 tracks in 5-7 seconds to be in the Playlist Area.

Step four : Play

No big deal of course. But when you really want to be surprised what will pass your loudspeakers, do not click the Playlist tab. Just click Play. With Attended you could let it stay like that, and with Unattended the GUI will disappear after a while, as you re used to.


Get the grasp of what happens

What we did above, was letting the system decide what to select as the base for our randomizing. This, while functionally we thought it was the whole bunch of Rock tracks (and this *is* how it works out of course). The effect (for the result) would have been the same of we had chosen "Do not Autoselect" in that combobox, and next select all (!) the Items in the Library Area, enter the 40 for the number of output tracks againm and click Go. However, technically this means that the 8000 tracks are taken as input for the 40 to randomize out of that. And this takes longer !

Anyway, where letting the system select for you is a kind of trick to make it all faster, the more normal means would be that you sit down, and roughly select from the chosen genre, or maybe select all and deselect those you sure don't want to be in the result. This latter you'd do only when you really have the time for it, and want to prepare some really good (randomized) playlist. But, once you have decimated such a list, and let's say the result is still 5000 tracks, why not save *that* as a Gallery Result List, and keep on picking that one to randomize 40 tracks from, which you can do for days and days and days before you will be fed up with hearing the same tracks.

Or what about this one : Do as described per above three steps (leave out step four for now), and notice that the 40 tracks still show selected after the Playlist Area has been filled. Aha, this means that the selected tracks can be thrown out by means of the Delete Selected Items function. So, why not do that. Next, save the currently remaining tracks into something like a RockRemainingTracks Saved Result List. Now click Play ...
Tomorrow you can retrieve that Save Result List, and repeat the exact same procedure. So each day the list will shrink and shrink, until there's nothing left (for 8000 tracks and 40 to output each day, this will take 200 days). And all the time you will never hear a track which was played earlier (from that list).

I guess it is all up to your own creativity.


Small issue for Cue Files

When you ask for Tracks ("T") in the Library Area, and during the search Cue File albums are discovered, they will show as that one large track they really consist of. However, when such an Item is selected for Randomizing, it will explode to its individual tracks first, and they will be part of the base to randomize. But now watch out : when this really is about a Track selection, and we let the system select the Items in the Library Area, and supposed within out 40 tracks (!) to select are two Cue File albums, they will be the majority of tracks. Thus, supposed those two Cue File albums contain 12 tracks each, than out of the total of 40 to output, there are 38 + 12 + 12 = 62 for input, and 24 of that are from those two albums !
Now, at looking at the Library Area, you can also see a "dishonesty" from another angle, which is that each normal album shows all its tracks in there, while the poor Cue File album only shows 1. So, it is tougher to get selected, but once it is, it is all over.
I don't think there is a good solution for this, until Cue File albums are exploded in the Library Area to begin with. Maybe later.

Have fun.
Peter

[SeVeReD]

Small issue for Cue Files

When you ask for Tracks ("T") in the Library Area, and during the search Cue File albums are discovered, they will show as that one large track they really consist of. However, when such an Item is selected for Randomizing, it will explode to its individual tracks first, and they will be part of the base to randomize. But now watch out : when this really is about a Track selection, and we let the system select the Items in the Library Area, and supposed within out 40 tracks (!) to select are two Cue File albums, they will be the majority of tracks. Thus, supposed those two Cue File albums contain 12 tracks each, than out of the total of 40 to output, there are 38 + 12 + 12 = 62 for input, and 24 of that are from those two albums !
Now, at looking at the Library Area, you can also see a "dishonesty" from another angle, which is that each normal album shows all its tracks in there, while the poor Cue File album only shows 1. So, it is tougher to get selected, but once it is, it is all over.
I don't think there is a good solution for this, until Cue File albums are exploded in the Library Area to begin with. Maybe later.

Have fun.
Peter

All of us in the Cue(l) File Club, each and everyone of us, hope that someday you will take time to explode these files into 'tracks' we can select in the library area, while keeping the inherently better sounding & better integrity of single WAV files intact for playback...All of us in the Cuel File Club urge you to now take action.  GL

[Eric]

Peter,
is there a way to get 2 (or more) "genres" into a result list?
I need it for example to play a random selection from my Pop and Jazz albums.
Cheers,
Eric.

[PeterSt]

Hi Eric,

No, currently not. But it really can be useful. So that will be in. I'm sure.
Thank you.
Peter

[Eric]

Okay Peter.

After using the Random Play function for several times now, it occurs to me that the playlists (length=20) all contain some tracks from a same album. This should statistically not happen so often (still not impossiblethough). So I guess my question is: how really Random is the algorithm? 
Cheers, Eric

[PeterSt]

And that isn't a Cue File album ?
How may tracks did you have in the Library Area for the base ?

[Eric]

And that isn't a Cue File album ?
How may tracks did you have in the Library Area for the base ?

No Peter, the albums are not CUE files. There are 11896 tracks in the Library Area result list that I am working with.
This is what appears in the Playlist. 20 tracks (as requested by me) which I numbered topdown for this discussion.
When tracks originate from the same album,  I put them on the same line here below.
1
2
3 18
4 11 13
5
6
7 12
8 14
9 16
10
15
17 19 20

So the tracks come from 12 different albums. Moreover, tracks number 11 and 13 are not only from the same album, but they are actually the same.

So let me do this one more time. Here is the result of the 2nd run.
1 18
2
3 6
4 8 14
5
7 15
9 11 19 20
10
12 16
13
17
   
So now the tracks come from 11 different albums. Moreover tracks 9, 11 and 19 are the same track.

Wouldn't you agree that this is very curious and suspicious at the same time?
Cheers,
Eric.

[PeterSt]

Wouldn't you agree that this is very curious and suspicious at the same time?

Hahaha, yes. But the question is : what are you doing wrong ?

If the answer is "nothing", then next the question is : what am I doing wrong. But I just re-checked, and no way this happens like that with me. I tried it more than 10 times, and I never saw the same album in my 20 results out of 42000 tracks in my case.
Next I tried some 10 times with a base of 6000 tracks, but again everything ok.

I guess you are doing something different than I described ?
It looks like you you have made your own selection (instead of "Auto select Library Items") or otherwise you have Albums in the Library Area, not Tracks (but in the latter case I may wonder whether you have 11896 albums, and I have the hunch you do anyway. ).

?

[PeterSt]

But Eric, I am as happy when you say you are doing all the things as described. But if so, I'm not sure what to do to find out what is going wrong at your side. But maybe this helps in that case :

Please describe what you do after starting up XX (so indeed, start there), in order to get such a result. Pictures are not needed. Can you do that ?

[Eric]

But Eric, I am as happy when you say you are doing all the things as described. But if so, I'm not sure what to do to find out what is going wrong at your side. But maybe this helps in that case :

Please describe what you do after starting up XX (so indeed, start there), in order to get such a result. Pictures are not needed. Can you do that ?

Peter,
I followed your instructions. Here it is.
1) I open XXHE
2) I check the Playlist area. No tracks are in it, just the text XXHighEnd Vista, Model 0.9y-4.
3) I click the Library Tab.
4) I Rightclick on "F" at the bottom of the screen.
5) I Select a stored Result List containing Tracks. The number 11896 appears. I browse through the list if the tracks are there. They are.
6) I Rightclick the 1st track, ===> Play Each ===> Randomly
7) I choose AutoSelect LibraryItems, fill in "20" and Click "Go".
I click on Playlist. Nothing happens. I click once more. The message XXHighEnd 0.9y-4 shows up in the topline. After 20 seconds or so the Playlist appears with 20 tracks.

I hope this helps you to advice me what to do.
Cheers,
Eric.   
 

[PeterSt]

I'm puzzled. The only thing which seems strange is that you are able to get the empty (with 0.9y-4 tekst) Playlist Area; I would say this isn't possible until the task of filling the Playlist Area is finished. I'm not sure whether this tells (me) something, but it is unexpected.


Ok. If all is right, the tracks chosen to stuff into the Playlist are the selected ones in the Library Area. Thus, after the process is finished, you should be able to find the tracks in there by means of browsing for the selected ones. Of course with 11896 tracks this is not a nice job, but the tracks in the playlist will tell you which they are in the first place, you that makes it more each to CHECK whether this is consistent. So a question could be : is it indeed so that the playlist contains the tracks which were (auto) selected by the system in the first place.

Assuming the above is so, you must know that the function actually used is the one you will find elsewhere in the rightclick context menu, and it is called something like "Auto select Library Items". I'm not sure where it sits right now (no XX pc available), but I think you will be able to find it. Now, in there you can do exactly the same for selecting, like entering that 20 for the number to select, and click Go to actually do it. So, this just selects in the Library Area. This will give you a very easy (and fast) means to check what is actually happening. You might try to decimate the list in the Library Area to 200 tracks or so (type Pink Floyd at the bottom, whatever), and with again selecting 20 (or maybe less) you may be able to see the pattern ?
Also note that you can make the Library Area a lot bigger and the pictures a lot smaller (with the slider at the bottom) so you will be able to see the selected items in a glance.

What will you be doing this for ? I don't know yet.
If it is too much trouble for you I can make the randomizing work differently for the next version and hope it helps. But I rather understand first.

If you can make screenshots easily, maybe it is an idea to post the 10 or 20 trials you will be performing, so I may see the pattern. Or maybe I do that first (later today) and let you see my "pattern".

[Eric]

Hi Peter,
the empty Playlist is caused by the fact that before I exited the previous session, I used the Clear function to make it empty.
Over the next couple of days, I will experiment with large and small Result lists, and create using Galleries or Original location. My time is limited until Wednesday, however I am confident that we will find out what is happening.
Thanks,
Eric.

[PeterSt]

Thank you for your patience Eric.

the empty Playlist is caused by the fact that before I exited the previous session, I used the Clear function to make it empty.

Of course, but that is not what I meant. I meant : how is it possible that you are able to see that while the Randomizing is still processing. Clicking on the Playlist tab would do nothing until ready. But somehow you can do it, and it goes to the Playlist (at a second click as I understood).

[Eric]

Peter,
no,no,
at the first click, the system does not respond at all and the Library Area is still displayed. At the second click, the systems "hangs", showing the message. After 20 seconds or so, the Playlist area is shown with the 20 tracks. The behaviour is exactly as you expect.
Eric 

[PeterSt]

Ah, ok. Thanks.



I see you are using a TwinDAC+. You know that is 18 bits (over SPDIF), right ? I'm only saying this because it may not be obvious, and you will be able to use Double/Arc.

[Eric]

Peter,
(this Post should go to a different thread I think)
for sure I know!!
Actually I was totally flabbergasted when I first played with double, AP. Stunning sound and very analogue. The best I have ever heard. Now the interesting point is that my first listening sessions were through my Weiss Medea which is an OS DAC. I am really curious if you will be able explain the logic of why AP sounds so excellent on the Weiss Medea. Of course, I also tried the No Oversampling option in XXHE and did all the comparisons between the DACs. I recognise everything that has been said about this on the forum, to the point that I discovered that some albums that I remembered as good recordings now appear as unbalanced to me. Some recordings now sound a little harsh in the mid-highs and flat in mid bass. I also recognise the findings about the soundstage. It is clear that AP forces me to revisit my reference points. Also your contribution on "what is true" appeals to me as true  . So I decided to postpone my judgement until I have been able to do more work on comparing the various combinations and possibilities. I will come back to this soon. One conclusion stands: I do not ever want to go back to 0.9y-3 or earlier. Just listen to Eric Clapton's Unplugged album and you will immediately know why. 
Cheers,
Eric. 

[PeterSt]

Dear Eric,

Of course I know you are one of the more serious audiophools from Holland, and just tried to challenge you at saying something about the Arc Upsampling, missing your comments so far. Of course you can copy-paste your comments into the other thread to have everything together, but for me it is important just to know your first findings. I will learn about your more definitive later (I sure hope).

And you know what ? I think the very first album I tried with Arc Upsampling is the very same Unplugged, and I recall asking my wife to tell me what it was, that being an album I own forever, but didn't play it for a long time. She couldn't guess ... that much had it changed ... But for me too it was something like HUH ?!? WHAT !

At this moment I wish I knew why it works on OS just the same. As I like to know why hires material sounds less good.
Thank you Eric,
Peter

[Eric]

Peter,
I performed some basic testing  with all 13 tracks from 1 album in the result list. I did Rightclick on Track 01 - ,Play Each - Randomly - Autoselect
The following happened.

- If I select 5 items, the fowwing tracknumbers are highlighted in the Library Area: 02,05,06,09,11. In the Playlist the following tracknumber appear (in that order): 12,13,12,10,01. As you can see it contains a duplicate (12). The selection in the Library does not match the selection in the Playlist Area. 
 
- If I select 10 items, the fowwing tracknumbers are highlighted in the Library Area: 02,03,04,06,07,08,09,10,11,12. In the Playlist the following tracknumber appear (in that order): 04,09,01,08,03,12,11,04,10,10. As you can see, again it contains a duplicate (10). The selection in the Library does not match the selection in the Playlist Area.

- If I select 13 items (=the number of tracks in the Library area) , the systems hangs. Checking Windows Taskmanagement shows that CPU usage by XXHE goes above 40%, and it stays there for at least 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, I cancelled the task XXHE. 

- If I select 15 items, the following tracknumbers are hightlighted in the Library Area: 02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,13. In the Playlist area I now see 10,04,09,08,13,06,03,07,01,04,09,02,01,10,01.  And no hanging system!

I repeated the last test several tims, Rightclicking different Tracknumbers to start with,  and everytime the selection in the Library Area does NOT contain track 01.

I hope that this behaviour gives you a clue about what is happening.

Cheers, Eric.

[PeterSt]

Thank you very much Eric.

Do you select the Items in the Library Area "normal" or with Checkboxes (the Chk checkbox being ticked) ?

[PeterSt]

Wait a minute ...

You weren't that user who couldn't get the tracks in albhabetical sequence number (which would be the 01, 02, 03 etc.) per track "somewhere", were you ? Or in other words, if you look in the Library Area, are the tracks there properly sorted in the first place ? (and do your tracks indeed have those sequence numbers in them ?)

I just tried the same as you did (though with an album of 10 tracks and output 6), and I see nothing going wrong ...
Ok, one thing : indeed the first track in the list never gets selected. And now I think of it, I know what that is.

[Eric]

Thank you very much Eric.

Do you select the Items in the Library Area "normal" or with Checkboxes (the Chk checkbox being ticked) ?

Peter,
Chk checkbox is unticked.
Tracks in the Library Area are sorted in alphabetical order, except when special character appear in the name. This is a different thing that I reported earlier, but it is not the case here.
I did not select the items myself. A selection (determined by the system) in the Library Area gets highlighted shortly after I press"Go" in the Combobox.

Eric

[PeterSt]

I don't get this !
(and you are not the only one that has this, as it appears)

The selection in the Library does not match the selection in the Playlist Area.

I just ask this to be sure : ... And this selection also isn't the same after the tracks have been loaded in the Playlist Area ? (actual question : So the selection didn't change after you first saw it (after Go)) ?

[Eric]

Peter,
just to be sure that I am clear on what I do.

1) I start XXHE.
2) Playlist contains no tracks, I click Library.
3) I go to Galleries embedded explorer and select 1 album.
4) At the bottom, I select "t" for Tracks and click "Search". Now 13 tracks appear in the Library Area.
5) I Rightclick on Track 01, Play Each - Randomly - Combo: AutoSelect LibraryItems, 5, Click Go
6) Now from the 13 tracks, the following 5 tracks get highlighted (selected by XXHE) in the Library Area: 02,05,06,09,11. The other 8 tracks also stay in the Library Area, but they are not highligted. 
7) Now I click on Playlist.The following 5 tracknumbers appear (from top to bottom, in that order): 12,13,12,10,01.

Now I Clear the Playlist, Exit XXHE, Start XXHE and repeat the same sequence with the following result.
6") Now the following tracknumbers get highlighted in the Library Area: 02,03,04,05,07.
7") I click on Playlist.The following 5 tracknumbers appear (from top to bottom): 07,08,07,06,11.

When I repeat the experiment with Combo: AutoSelect LibraryItems, 13, Click Go,
XXHE hangs. This behaviour is repeatable and it only happens when I choose 13 in the Combobox.

Interesting, isn't it?
Eric.

[PeterSt]

Eric, thank you (you are really overdoing it ). What's new of course is your original selection from Embedded Explorer, but that is exactly what I did the last to ever get one album in there.

Interesting, isn't it?

NO !!

The hang I can imagine, because I take care that not any item will get in the result twice, and with the skip of the first (which is a bug) things will go wrong in that area. But no matter I "take care of that", for you this doesn't help a bit.

Do you perhaps recognize that your "selection means" is set differently ? like "one click" does the same as normally double click ... something like that ...

Below is 20 tracks with 8 output, done exactly the same as you.

[PeterSt]

Eric, try to help me find what is going on by examine other similar features. Please do this :

Go to the bottom option of that Randomize menu, enter the number you want to select and click Go. As I said before, it is this funciton which is being called, and I think at your side that works correctly too. But now click Load. If all is right those randomly selected tracks will be loaded in the Playlist Area (but in alphabetical sequence). But if all is REALLY right, and I mean consistent, that too in your case must come up with something else.

Please let me know.

[Eric]

Peter,
this way it works fine, the selection appears in the Playlist in alphabetical sequence.
So, if I understand what you are saying, this is not consistent...........
Eric.

[PeterSt]

After you looked at the Playlist, the selection is still there as it should ? (in the Library Area)

[Eric]

Yes.

[Eric]

The strange thing with track01 is that, although it is never selected in the Library, sometimes does show up in the Playlist.

[PeterSt]

Yes, I saw that from your last example.

At least I know now in which part it goes wrong at your side, which only is the "shuffeling" of the selected items (this is the only thing not happening at using that other function).

I gues I must give up on this, and rewrite that part so drastically that it will work on your side (and maybe not on mine anymore, hahaha).

Thank you for your time for now Eric.

[Eric]

Peter,
NP,
for me there is no hurry to get it fixed. First, I have some other things to do (comparing AP on different DACs)
P.S.
On October 13th, the following message was posted.
Maybe this is related to what I am experiencing.
Ciao,
Eric,

Hi Peter,

If I load a few albums to the playlist (randomly) I invariably get tracks which are duplicated. It can go up to 30% duplicate tracks. However if I load then without randomisation then it does not duplicate.

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Yes, that is what I said, you are not the only one.