PCI soundcards

[Per]

Hi all,

I think it would be great to have a thread to discuss PCI soundcards.

While I was searching for a good internal soundcard (to analog out) to get a good but lowprice start with XXHIGHEND 0.9-y4 and upsampling / arc predition I stumbled over this modded card from Itemaudio:

http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/prodigy_hd2.html

Looks interesting. I might give it a try.

Best Regards,

Per

[PeterSt]

If I may have on opinion ...

To me this looks top of the bill. Should be better than anything else really.
Reason : Those "discrete opamps" which you may not recognize at first glance, but I do.

Also notice this is ESI which are good at this anyway (Juli@).
If I had to choose between a Lynx and this, I'd always take this (at less than half the price).

Peter

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Those "discrete opamps"

I remember having these in my hands, last time at your place, Peter

Nice card anyway, this is a nice solution for a bargain, just add an word-clock and some red BlackGate's for fun, some WBT-nextgen silver connectors some pure silver-wire.
Give it its own power supply (shunts), some nice interlinks..........
And you are there !
haha

Great

[Fidelio]

To me this looks top of the bill. Should be better than anything else really.

I have tried the Audiotrak vs my Onkyo, and the Onkyo eats it for breakfast.

I have been contemplating upgrading to the SE-200 Ltd, looks absolutely spiffing, uses better quality parts and a better DAC than my SE-90 (Wolfson 8716 vs 8740). Opamps are the same on both cards. If it sounds better than the 90, I may have found my dream source.

The coolest thing about these are the analogue volume control (and proper mute circuits) and its absolute quietness. I have run the card directly into power amps (totally doable due to what turns out to be analogue volume attenuation), and it is dead quiet, adds no noise over the amplifiers' noise floor.

[Per]

Thanks a lot guys, Great comments.
 
That was exactly the kind of discussion / content I had in mind when starting this thread 

Keep it flowing 

By the way. The Burson modded Audio Prodigy HD2 se is priced at $322 or 217 EU plus VAT. What are we talking about for the Onkyo SE-200 ltd?

Per

[mojave]

Because I want a multichannel solution, I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board. All the opamps are swappable and I already have a 1ppm TCXO to install when I get the card. This card has its own Molex power connector for the audio output section.

Here is the card modded with Burson Opamps:

[mojave]

Fidelio, you mention in another thread that you have a very quiet PC power supply. What power supply are you using?

[Per]

... I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board.

Thanks Mojave. Looks very interesting, too. But as far as I have read, the Asus Essence ST does NOT do 88.2 and 176.2 khz sample rates - whereas the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 should do anything between some 33 and 192 khz. Isn't that important in order to not hamper Peters great intentions with upsampling and arc prediction in version 0.9y-4?

Per

[Fidelio]

Fidelio, you mention in another thread that you have a very quiet PC power supply. What power supply are you using?

A Seasonic, cannot remember the model name, I will have to open the PC case. Will check next time I open it.

The SE-200 Ltd. is about 30k Yen, soooo about 225 EUR.

[mojave]

Thanks Mojave. Looks very interesting, too. But as far as I have read, the Asus Essence ST does NOT do 88.2 and 176.2 khz sample rates - whereas the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 should do anything between some 33 and 192 khz. Isn't that important in order to not hamper Peters great intentions with upsampling and arc prediction in version 0.9y-4?

Per

I did not realize that until you mentioned it so I checked the manual and you are correct. I'm still not sure whether the card always resamples to its set sample rate if one is use WASAPI exclusive mode. Also, they are supposed to be releasing drivers that allow for automatic sample rate adjustment. In other words, it always will use the sample rate that you send it by changing its set sample rate. I'll have to wait and see if this supports 88.2 and 176.4.

I definitely feel that Peter's upsampling and arc prediction are what makes the new version sound so great and I want to be able to use it. If I used 4x upsampling with 44.1 material, the card would accept the 176.4 and then resample to 196 kHz. This might still sound better than listening at 44.1. It also might not be a noticeable difference from listening to 176.4. The 4x Arc Prediction upsampling might have improved things to such a degree that the final resampling from 176.4 to 196 kHz won't impact the sound quality.

[earflappin]

Peter, on a scale of good/better/best how do the PCI card to DAC interfaces rate in your book?  What is the closest to zero jitter - i2S?  With my Berkeley Alpha DAC found that AES/EBU was better than coax or toslink, but I realize that could vary depending how the DAC is designed.  I guess I'm asking the question - what is the BEST interface from a sound quality standpoint.  It is is i2s what PCI cards support this if at all?  I have the sense that you have modded a PCI card to create your own custom i2S interface?

[PeterSt]

David,

It doesn't work like that. Or not that simple ...

As I have it myself at the moment : PCI -> i2s. Not "zero" jitter (which doesn't exist anyway), because it can't work like that. This is because the PC will be clocking, while at the other end (read : at a too long distance) the DAC is clocking in.

AES/EBU is theoretically better for a long(er) distance, but implies also a very different means of clocking (data embedded, while i2s ix explicit).

So yes, I have modded a PCI card to output i2s, but in the end it is not the way to go. Why ? because there are better options.
The better options come down to like how it was in the CDPlayer, the clock right next to the DAC. Now, with the external DAC that requires totally different solutions, like asynch connections (the DAC clocking, the PC just pumping computer data).

Next, in the DAC box it comes down to the lowest jitter connection possible, and indeed at that time this would be i2s.

But in the above I implied some hurdles which are not so easy to overcome, but, which can. You will see ...

All 'n all it is a large matrix with the pros and cons, while one crossing exists that suits all.

[Fidelio]

Should we keep this thread about PCI sound cards and their analogue outs?

Ok so which ones do we have that are interesting for us:

Onkyo Wavio SE-90 PCI:

Chipset: VIA Envy24MT
DAC: Wolfson WM8716
Singal-Noise Ratio 110dB (Line Out)
Frequency Response 0.3Hz - 44kHz (line Out +0/-0.5dB)
Digital OUT Sampling Frequency 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Connection Line Out x1 (RCA / Stereo) Digital Out x1 (Toslink)


Onkyo Wavio SE-200 and SE-200 Ltd:

Chipset: VIA Envy24HT
DAC: Wolfson WM8740
Singal-Noise Ratio: 115dB (2Ch Analog Out)
Frequency Response: 0.3Hz - 88kHz (2Ch Analog Out Out +0/-3dB)
Digital IN Sampling Frequency: 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96kHz
Digital OUT sampling frequency: 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Input terminal: Analog IN X 2 (stereo RCA, internal connection)
Digital IN X 1 (Toslink)
MIC X 1 (φ 3.5mm monaural)
Output terminal: 2ch Analog OUT X 1 (stereo RCA)
Digital OUT X 1 (Toslink)
7.1ch Analog OUT X 1

Audiotrak Prodigy HD2:

PCI audio interface based on VIA VT1721 (Envy24HT-S)
PCI card supplied with standard and low profile metal bracket
24 bit / 192kHz playback (analog & digital)
24 bit / 96kHz recording
high quality AKM AK4396 120dB(a) S/N ratio DA converter for extremly high quality 2 channel audio playback via RCA output connectors (5Hz - 40kHz frequency response)
triple OpAmp design for audio output with three high quality Fairchild NE5532 OpAmps on separate sockets (can be exchanged for tuning & customization)
headphone output with 1/8" connector routed via JRC4580 dual OpAmp
analog line input with 1/8" connector via AKM AK5353/7 102dB(a) S/N ratio AD converter (20Hz - 40kHz frequency response)
optical S/PDIF digital output following IEC-958C standard, can be used for stereo audio playback (PCM) and multichannel streams from such sources (AC-3 or DTS data)

Asus Xonar Essence ST:

This card will not do 88.2Khz and 176.4Khz sample rates, and does not have auto sample rate switching.

Audio Processor: ASUS AV100 High-Definition Sound Processor (Max. 192KHz/24bit)
24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources: Texas Instruments PCM1792A*1 (127dB SNR, Max.192kHz/24bit)
24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs: Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)
High Fidelity Headphone Amplifier: Texas Instruments 6120A2*1 (120dB SNR, 100dB THD+N @ Vcc±12V
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted): 124dB for Front-out
Analog Playback Sample Rate and Resolution: 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit

M-Audio Audiophile 192:

Sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192 kHz from internal clock.
Analogue I/O: two inputs and two outputs, balanced/unbalanced quarter-inch jack sockets
Digital I/O: S/PDIF in and out on phono coaxial
Converters: AKM 5385A dual-bit delta-sigma 24-bit/192kHz (A-D), AKM 4358 multi-bit 24-bit/192kHz (D-A).
Dynamic range: 113dBA (A-D), 109dBA (D-A).
Frequency response: ±0.5dB, 20Hz to 80kHz at 192kHz sample rate.
THD + noise: 0.0006 percent (inputs), 0.0023 percent (outputs).

Any more that should be good?

[JohanZ]

About the Audiotrak HD2.........

......triple OpAmp design for audio output with three high quality Fairchild NE5532 OpAmps on separate sockets   

Replace them for 2xLT1364 ans 1x LT1361 great improvement.
I do have the DDDAC1543 but with the Audiotrak HD2 card I have at least a similar sound quality and it gives me more possibilities using XX.
I have used the opa627 on browndog  (the best!? and expensive) but what is lacking is the life and ejoyment factor!

See : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-opamp-configurations-list-322497/

[Fidelio]

I think the NE5532 are there for a reason: low noise. The Audiotrak and the Onkyos use them very much for this reason I think.

[Per]

About the Audiotrak HD2.........

......triple OpAmp design for audio output with three high quality Fairchild NE5532 OpAmps on separate sockets   

Replace them for 2xLT1364 ans 1x LT1361 great improvement.
I do have the DDDAC1543 but with the Audiotrak HD2 card I have at least a similar sound quality and it gives me more possibilities using XX.
I have used the opa627 on browndog  (the best!? and expensive) but what is lacking is the life and ejoyment factor!

See : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-opamp-configurations-list-322497/

Thanks a lot JohanZ for the suggestions and the link. I might start out cheap then with the standard HD2 and the opamps you suggest. It would be fun to AB listen to the Burson modified HD2 and the standard HD2

Per

[JohanZ]

I think the NE5532 are there for a reason: low noise. The Audiotrak and .......  

The HD2 Gold uses OPA2134 on the buffer stage while maintaining JRC5532 on differential stage. So there we go...There are a lot of people experimenting with these opamps. Look on the internet.

[Fidelio]

Look on the internet.

I'm already here

[Fidelio]

It seems there are Korean versions of the Audiotrak with better specs. Different caps and different opamps.

[mojave]

The HT Omega Claro Halo is another card to consider. The Claro Halo XT adds a 6 channel board with RCA jacks for a 7.1 channel solution.

Chipset: C-Media Oxygen HD CMI8788 Audio Processor
DAC: 24-bit/192kHz AK4396VF
SNR: 120dB (2Ch Analog Out)
Swappable OPAMP sockets

Edit:  I just found out from HT Omega that this card resamples 88.2 and 176.4 to either 96 or 192 kHz. 

[Telstar]

Because I want a multichannel solution, I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board.

I didnt know the opamps were swappable on the extension board as well. This makes it really good. There is only ONE problem with the Asus drivers and it is that they dont change sample rate on the fly... yet.

Another option would be the Omega Claro Halo XT, but I prefer the BB dacs on the Asus card.

[Robscix]

I have done a great deal of testing with many opamps on many different soundcards including discretes.  I also build custom units for my testing so if you have any questions that I may be able to answer please feel free to ask.

Any of the cards with replacable opamps offer you "tunability" That other cards do not have.  You can use your favorite opamps that improve the sound quality or change it more to your liking or making the card a better match with your phones/speakers.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

How about this one,

http://www.lcaudio.com/index.php?page=6

take analog output from DAC chips and feed in this anlog endstage the ZAP-Filter with seperate shunt-psu.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

I have done a great deal of testing with many opamps on many different soundcards including discretes.  I also build custom units for my testing so if you have any questions that I may be able to answer please feel free to ask.

Any of the cards with replacable opamps offer you "tunability" That other cards do not have.  You can use your favorite opamps that improve the sound quality or change it more to your liking or making the card a better match with your phones/speakers.

Welcome and join the club (of other nutcases),

Aways nice to have people around with some skills.

 

[Telstar]

Because I want a multichannel solution, I plan to get the Asus Essence ST with the H6 DAC expansion board. All the opamps are swappable and I already have a 1ppm TCXO to install when I get the card.

I did some more search last night and IMO the Essence ST seems the best bet for internal cards to be used as DAC.
Do you know if the opamps are swappable also on the H6 board?

This card has its own Molex power connector for the audio output section.

Yep, this means that the power can be filtered before going to the card (i'm thinking of a small but effective shunt regulator). A better shielding all around both cards should allow us to put them in the same case of the PC, which if is already fanless and not very polluting should be sufficiently quiet to not pollute the card HF.

[Fidelio]

Yep, this means that the power can be filtered before going to the card (i'm thinking of a small but effective shunt regulator). A better shielding all around both cards should allow us to put them in the same case of the PC, which if is already fanless and not very polluting should be sufficiently quiet to not pollute the card HF.

This does not work. Some guys over at Head-Fi tried this, but the power connection is a bit more complex than that. The card draws power from both the molex and the PCI slot. I think they concluded that it was near impossible.

[Telstar]

Yep, this means that the power can be filtered before going to the card (i'm thinking of a small but effective shunt regulator). A better shielding all around both cards should allow us to put them in the same case of the PC, which if is already fanless and not very polluting should be sufficiently quiet to not pollute the card HF.

This does not work. Some guys over at Head-Fi tried this, but the power connection is a bit more complex than that. The card draws power from both the molex and the PCI slot. I think they concluded that it was near impossible.

It's been awhile since i didnt check headfi, my bad.
That leaves probably only one other option to pursue, which is the pci-e to pci adapter that I once pointed to Peter. I dont know if it uses the pci-e power as well.

I mean this one:
http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/pci-express-to-pci-adapter-p29855.html

For small cases (such as mine), a pci riser card is also needed. To have 3 slot adapters do not sound too nice in my book. But well, it's so cheap  that we can try.

Of course the black external box that was considered would allow for a better PS to the card(s), but at almost 400 euros I do not find it cost-effective to implement for a card such as the Essence.

[GerardA]

Hi Telstar,
that's a nice thingy, PCI-e to PCI, that's what I need too.
Will be nice in the future for a lot of people when they buy a new motherboard.
But on the same site there is a PCI-e to 4PCI adaptor-box for  199 euro!

BTW, I'm looking for a PCI-e soundcard with good SPDIF too, but I only want it if it supports 88 and 172kHz.
So I guess the ASUS is out of the Question for me.

And when Peter's Dac comes out, we can throw away our new soundcards??

[Fidelio]

BTW, I'm looking for a PCI-e soundcard with good SPDIF too, but I only want it if it supports 88 and 172kHz.
So I guess the ASUS is out of the Question for me.

Audiotrak or Onkyo.

[Telstar]

Hi Telstar,
that's a nice thingy, PCI-e to PCI, that's what I need too.

I dont need it, i have 2 pci-e slots, but it could allow to be powered separately and therefore provide more isolation for the soundcard power.
Just a though, not sure.

BTW, I'm looking for a PCI-e soundcard with good SPDIF too, but I only want it if it supports 88 and 172kHz.

Check also the Claro Halo (pci), one guy got bnc out from it and bnc carries spdif with much lower jitter.

And when Peter's Dac comes out, we can throw away our new soundcards??

I have 2 other computers, they sure will have a new home

[GerardA]

Audiotrak or Onkyo.

Both are PCI, I only have a PCI-e slot avalaible in my HT-PC.
 

[Fidelio]

Audiotrak or Onkyo.

Both are PCI, I only have a PCI-e slot avalaible in my HT-PC.
 

I didn't know there existed mainboards without PCI..

[JohanZ]

Audiotrak or Onkyo.

Does Onkyo has Windows 7 drivers? Audiotrak didn't

[mojave]

Yes, drivers were released on October 22, 2009 for Windows 7.

[PeterSt]

Audiotrak or Onkyo.

Both are PCI, I only have a PCI-e slot avalaible in my HT-PC.
 

I didn't know there existed mainboards without PCI..

That's how I read it too. But I guess GerardA meant what he actually said ... *available*.

[GerardA]

Yes I think that is what I meant...
Of course there are three PCI-slots, but the Graphicscard occupies two, but uses one and the other one is in use by a sattelitecard.
So if I have to choose who goes out...
Maybe somebody knows a silent graphicscard that only needs the space of one slot?
There exist some pci-e audiocards but they don't do 192 let alone 172.
I would expect some progress here but only Peter is helping us to get better sound!

[hubsand]

Hi all,

I think it would be great to have a thread to discuss PCI soundcards.

While I was searching for a good internal soundcard (to analog out) to get a good but lowprice start with XXHIGHEND 0.9-y4 and upsampling / arc predition I stumbled over this modded card from Itemaudio:

http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/prodigy_hd2.html

Looks interesting. I might give it a try.

Best Regards,

Per

Why are there no reviews of this yet? Granted, the Onkyo 'eats the (standard) Audiotrak for breakfast', but this SE version looks like a pretty massive upgrade. Maybe it 'eats'/owns the stock Onkyo?

[Fidelio]

Why are there no reviews of this yet? Granted, the Onkyo 'eats the (standard) Audiotrak for breakfast', but this SE version looks like a pretty massive upgrade. Maybe it 'eats'/owns the stock Onkyo?

Well, the Onkyo is japanese and not really sold officially in Europe and the US. So that doesn't make it very interesting to review, since it can't be bought locally. The Audiotrak is Korean I think, so I guess the same goes there.

[Telstar]

Well, the Onkyo is japanese and not really sold officially in Europe and the US. So that doesn't make it very interesting to review, since it can't be bought locally. The Audiotrak is Korean I think, so I guess the same goes there.

The new owner of audiotrak is korean, but they have worldwide distribution. Onkyo does NOT distribute its soundcards outside of Japan (unfortunately).

[JohanZ]

Why are there no reviews of this yet?

See : http://ixbtlabs.com/sound.html#subsec108 under Sound Cards & ProAudio

[xp9433]

Fidelio, You gave the following specs for the Onkyo Wavio SE 90 Card:

Chipset: VIA Envy24MT
DAC: Wolfson WM8716
Singal-Noise Ratio 110dB (Line Out)
Frequency Response 0.3Hz - 44kHz (line Out +0/-0.5dB)
Digital IN Sampling Frequency 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Connection Line Out x1 (RCA / Stereo) Digital Out x1 (Toslink)

I couldn't see anywhere in the published specs that it had those "digital in" sampling frequencies - "digital out" yes.
Even the upmarket SE -200 LTD card doesn't have digital in sampling frequencies above 96kHz.

So when you use quad arc upsampling is it really accepting a 176.4 kHz straight through "in signal" or processing it in some way first?
With the SE 90 are you hearing better sound using quad arc upsampling than when using arc double upsampling?

Thanks Frank

[Fidelio]

Fidelio, You gave the following specs for the Onkyo Wavio SE 90 Card:

Chipset: VIA Envy24MT
DAC: Wolfson WM8716
Singal-Noise Ratio 110dB (Line Out)
Frequency Response 0.3Hz - 44kHz (line Out +0/-0.5dB)
Digital IN Sampling Frequency 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz
Connection Line Out x1 (RCA / Stereo) Digital Out x1 (Toslink)

I couldn't see anywhere in the published specs that it had those "digital in" sampling frequencies - "digital out" yes.
Even the upmarket SE -200 LTD card doesn't have digital in sampling frequencies above 96kHz.

So when you use quad arc upsampling is it really accepting a 176.4 kHz straight through "in signal" or processing it in some way first?
With the SE 90 are you hearing better sound using quad arc upsampling than when using arc double upsampling?

Thanks Frank

The SE-90 doesn't have digital in, but the SE-200 does. But I don't need digital in, unless I were to digitize vinyl or loop a cdp(!) through the card. Digital in is for connecting external sources to the card digitally.

It is a sound card, you mix its playback capabilities with its connectors to external sources. It does 176.4, and up to 192 of course. I don't like the sound with upsampling, and I like the sound with arc upsampling even less.

Edit: It's supposed to say "digital OUT" lol.

[PeterSt]

Fidelio, this is not what Frank means. Also, it is too obvious to explain (or at least I don't feel like it).

By now I have the strong feeling that you may not get what it is all about and that you explicitly try to be in another leage (meaning the leage of cheap soundcards never meant to achieve a level of "hi-fi" which by itself is an obsolete term for for 70's of the previous century). Of course this is your good right, and actually nothing is wrong with that. But :

Right from the beginning you try to tell us (explicitly or not) that an internal (PCI) soundcard used with its analogue outs is able to compete with "our DACs" you may never had to begin with. Again it is your right not to want such a DAC, but you are turning things towards your own measures as if they were absolute (best) standards. Similar is your idea about SPDIF out from the mobo and that being better than USB. Well, for the discussion let that be so. This, however, by no means implies it is good, btw nor is Toslink. It may be better than an $100 USB China DAC .. I don't know.

I am sure not teaching a lesson here, and as said you are allowed to think - and even to say what you want. But what I don't like is that a group of people (those in here) now seem to be represented by a "good discussion" about internal soundcards which are just toys. We are not toying here but instead the most serious (and probably the most serious of all audio "communities" out there).

But wait

This thread was started by Per, and his question indeed is about internal soundcards with analogue out. I can tell you he is not even asking the question to let it be a temporary solution. Per has the most good reasons to ask for help on this, like in the end everybody would, but in this case it is extra special (I say, I know). Nothing to eleborate further on, but if he can get the best internal soundcard with analogue out, he is MUCH helped by it.

Thus, the latter tells that I don't want to stop the discussion whatsoever, which discussion is just about a good internal soundcard where the analogue outs are used.

Thanks, and *really* no offense meant to anyone, especially not to Fidelio. I mean it.
Peter


PS: Fidelio, if Frank is right, it is no wonder that Arc Prediction makes it worse for you.

[Fidelio]

Right from the beginning you try to tell us (explicitly or not) that an internal (PCI) soundcard used with its analogue outs is able to compete with "our DACs" you may never had to begin with.

Peter, I have listened to six or seven different DACs (and a few sound cards) between £150 and £1000 here whilst owning my Onkyo card, so I do have something to compare with. An external DAC is, by nature, obviously more expensive to produce (more parts, power supplies, cases), and I feel that a good sound card offers more vfm. Moreover, they are made by big companies and sold mostly to computer-savvy people, a combination that doesn't exactly raise the prices unneccesarily.

internal soundcards which are just toys. We are not toying here but instead the most serious (and probably the most serious of all audio "communities" out there).

I do not agree with this at all. Proper sound cards are serious sources designed by people who know what they are doing imo.

PS: Fidelio, if Frank is right, it is no wonder that Arc Prediction makes it worse for you.

I do not understand this, what do you mean?

[PeterSt]

Your card will be resampling ?

Please keep in mind ... *if* Frank is right. I did not check it.

Peter

[Telstar]

Peter, I have listened to six or seven different DACs (and a few sound cards) between £150 and £1000 here whilst owning my Onkyo card, so I do have something to compare with.

I believe this. I also compared my Quartet to mid level dacs and cd players before making the switch. I know Audiodidakt did something similar.

Or course they are no match for high-end dacs that are in the 3k+ range. So, for me, they are a temporary solution, and i have the additional hard requirement of 8 channels to operate the software crossover of my (future) speakers.

[xp9433]

"Your card will be resampling ? Please keep in mind ... *if* Frank is right. I did not check it." Peter

Peter, Is there a relatively simple way to determine what sample frequencies a DAC/Soundcard will accept without resampling?

Frank

[PeterSt]

Hey Frank,

Unfortunately, I don't think so. If the drivers don't show the sample rate the card is working at, you're in the blind.
Also notice that there is a difference in SPDIF passthrough and analogue out, where both may operate at a different sample rate. The example is the SRC in there (Sample Rate Converter) which is not in order with SPDIF passthrough, but will with analogue out.
I mean, you could go to a shop and hook the PC up to a pro device, that taking the SPDIF from the soundcard and show its sample rate. But it still doesn't say everything.

In this case the chip is sigma-delta, so the analogue output rate will be at 64~512 times the input rate. This already never matches the specs in the first place.

Peter

[Fidelio]

Your card will be resampling ?

Well, in the VIA driver control panel, the current sample rate is specified when playing. If a play a song vanilla in XXHE, it shows 44.1. If I then tick double or quad, it shows 88.2 or 176.4.

If I set the card's sample rate to 96khz, for example, it will not play materal with another sample rate, only 96Khz. The same thing goes for foobar w/WASAPI, the card can only play the sample rate it is locked to (unless using auto, and then it specifies the sample rate its running at).

I don't think the card is resampling or upsampling anything; I don't think it can. The DAC should be running at whatever is sent to it.

[PeterSt]

Fidelio, Good !

Nothing more to say.

[hubsand]

Why are there no reviews of this yet?

See : http://ixbtlabs.com/sound.html#subsec108 under Sound Cards & ProAudio

I can't see anything relevant there: the Burson-modified Audiotrak HD2 is surely a whole different animal from the stock unit . . .

[Leo]

Hello Fidelio,

I just bought the Onkyo 200 ltd, running it in Windows 7. However the VIA control panel does not show the 'auto' option for the bitrate. On the Headfi forum screenshots of a previous version of VIA had that option on top of the limited range of selectable fixed bitrates but not the 5.4f release for windows 7.
It seems I can only use 44, 48, 96 and 192 as others are not shown as options. And when I try to force it by sending 88.2 data from XX I get the familiar warnings about end points that have failed in mysterious ways and DAC that is guilty of all kinds of digital crime. And definitely no music.
Is there a magic hidden button I should use ? Or is the Windows 7 version perhaps a step backwards which does not allow 88 and 176 (yet)?
My Japanese is pretty weak so I cannot find any solutions on the Onkyo site, and the Tsjech distributor and his staff are fighting the swine flu it seems.

With native 192 files and 44.1 I have no problems. But as a fan of the Holy Arc Prediction I want the 88 and 176 of course .....

Leo

[PeterSt]

What about trying the older driver ?

[Leo]

a. Try to do that on a site in Japanese, allthough good for a laugh after you try google translation  !
b. would those older drivers work with Windows 7 ?

[xp9433]

Leo
Are you sure 88.2 & 176.4 inputs were ever an option for this sound card!?
I didn't get a clear answer when I asked. And the specs don't show it?
Frank

[Leo]

Well it seems that Fidelio used the SP90 of Onkyo with 88.2 (see above in this thread) and if I read the specs (see the link below)  it definitely claims these bitrates

 http://www.onkyowavio.com/11-onkyo-wavio-se-200pci-ltd.html

Also on discussion on Headfi this was stated as one of the advantages of the Onkyo cards

Leo

[Fidelio]

Hi guys;

Yes, the card does 88.2 and 176.4, the pics posted on Head-Fi are mine. You can get the latest drivers from VIA, no need to use the drives from Onkyo.
On Win 7, I get an error when installing the drivers with the setup.exe. To install correctly to Win 7, in the Win device manager, just point Windows to the folder with your VIA driver, and it will install the driver properly. Then copy the VIA control panel app to your hard drive manually and run it from there.

Congrats on the card, let us know how you think it sounds after you have run it in for a while. Also, it would be interesting to hear your impressions of Arc Pred. and how it sounds with the card; I find that it makes everything worse with my Onkyo.

On the subject of PCI sound cards, there is a new contender. Dual BB PCM1794 dacs, nice opamps and claimed proper power filtering. Designed and made in the UK. Looks interesting.

[Leo]

Thanks Fidelio,

that did the trick ! I use the 540a driver, which a control panel which looks exactly as the panel  I got from the Onkyo download page but now with the 'auto' button in all its glory and might.

And now back for some serious listening !

Leo

[Per]

...On the subject of PCI sound cards, there is a new contender. Dual BB PCM1794 dacs, nice opamps and claimed proper power filtering. Designed and made in the UK. Looks interesting.

Thanks Fidelio for keeping this thread updated with interesting new PCI cards. That ouverture sure looks pretty serious. Would be nice, though, to see som highres pictures to check out more details. Or listen to one 

Per

[Fidelio]

Thanks Fidelio,

that did the trick ! I use the 540a driver, which a control panel which looks exactly as the panel  I got from the Onkyo download page but now with the 'auto' button in all its glory and might.

And now back for some serious listening !

Good to hear! You are using the cards analogue outs, right?

That ouverture sure looks pretty serious. Would be nice, though, to see som highres pictures to check out more details. Or listen to one 

I am seriously contemplating getting one, it looks as though it might be a winner. And I love that they actually have made it in the UK and not in China. It is, after all, very inexpensive in hi-fi terms, and Cantatis have a return policy so there is really not much to loose here.

The card is based on the VIA Envy chipset, which guarantees stable and well working drivers, auto sample rate selection and 64bit support (same chip as the Audiotrak and Onkyo cards use). Three expansion PCI cards are also coming, with digital inputs, analogue inputs and also an FM(!) card.

[PeterSt]

Would be nice, though, to see som highres pictures to check out more details.

http://www.cantatis.co.uk/upload/file_15_4.pdf
http://www.cantatis.co.uk/upload/file_15_7.pdf

[Leo]

I used both analogue and spdif out, to my Allman dac for comparison. With the 192 files i used (before the help of Fidelio), the Altman clearly won against the new Onkyo (more and better bass and more 'stable'sound). Now after a couple of days of running the Onkyo I think the tables are turning.

I have just been listening to Betty Lavette using 176 and arc prediction and never heard it so good (using analog out of the Onkyo)...

tralala

[Per]

Would be nice, though, to see som highres pictures to check out more details.

http://www.cantatis.co.uk/upload/file_15_4.pdf
http://www.cantatis.co.uk/upload/file_15_7.pdf

Thanks, Peter. I did not see those links / informations. For pictures I would still prefer an overview highres picture like this (on the Audiotrak HD2)

http://www.audiotrak.net/images/products/prodigyhd2_large.jpg

Per

[PeterSt]

This is all I could find !

[Per]

This is all I could find !

I dropped Cantatis a line asking them for some highres pictures of the soundcard. Thanks again for the links.

Per

[Fidelio]

Great to hear that you are pleased with the Onkyo Could you perhaps be a bit more specific regarding how you percieve the SQ with and without Arc Pred? Perhaps we are hearing the same things but have different preferences.

I have decided to try out the Cantatis card, will report back eventually. Moreover, I have just recieved two Black Gate caps that are going to do the power filtering on the Onkyo card, the two main power filtering caps that are there by standard could perhaps be improved on. Will have to get the soldering iron out (and I am cr*p at soldering).

[Leo]

I have not done a comparison with and without Arc prediction with the onkyo yet. As I was very hapy with it before with fireface 400 and Altman dac or the 'hongkong dac' I tried that immediately. And like the endresult a lot. But I will do that comparison this week and let you know

And as I have also the 90 card (above 300 euro I had free shipping and shipping was something like 50 or 60 euro so i bought both cards) I will get out the soldering iron as well and try some modifications on that one. Better opamps, burton perhaps,  or even output transformer instead of opamps.
great and never ending quest this is...

[Fidelio]

Leo, it would be great with a comparison between the 200 Ltd and the 90 unmodded if you have the time.

[Leo]

How could I even consider to refuse this after your help ? 

I will let you know my experiences with both cards with and without arc prediction end of this week

[Fidelio]

How could I even consider to refuse this after your help ? 

I will let you know my experiences with both cards with and without arc prediction end of this week

Super duper!

[Leo]

A very brief write up of my experience, just before I am off for a week of wintersport, so remarks and questions will have to wait a bit for my answer.
I compaired two sound cards from Onkyo , the 90 and the 200 ltd, and each with  44.1 files and with quad + arc prediction.
I used both speakers (ob Hawthorne enabled and ob subwoofer with 5 15 inch drivers per side) and headphone (UE 10 custom, really great !).
I am not really good in wording the impressions I have and the observations are biased by my preferences and equipment of course.
The cards were very new and I really had to let them warm up for a few hours after swapping them in and out. Only one slot available unfortunately.  The 200 sounded really horrible when cold, that did not change in these weeks. The 90 was less effected but also soundend better after a couple of hours of use. Maybe this will change with more weeks of usage.
I used a set of 8 songs for the comparison, going back and forth over the days and diiferent setups.
I think that the just stereo and cheaper 90 is at least as good as the more versatile and more expensive 200 ltd. With the 90 it occurred quite a few time that I forgot the task of judging and was just listening and starting other albums instead of the set of test songs. The 200 was less involving and fluid , imho.
And for me the quad and arc was really superior to the 44.1, more three dimensional feel of the instruments and more realistic small details, that for me are very important.
well Fidelio as I think you mentioned that the quad+arc for you is worse than the 44.1 files, you probably will  doubt on my findings about the 200 card. Sorry about that

Leo

[Per]

Thanks Leo for the writeup 

Have a nice week in the snow.

Per

[Fidelio]

Thanks for the writeup m8

I didn't really mean that quad arc was worse than vanilla, but it is clearly different. What one prefers is probably a matter of taste, so I don't doubt what you write at all. Vanilla rocks more and has better rhytmic integrity, if you will, whereas quad arc has more room, space, 3d etc. (in my setup. Perhaps vanilla has better synergy with my Naim stuff). Do you think quad arc is better for rock music (you didn't say what kind of music you demoed)?

So am I to understand that you think the SE-90 is the better card for stereo? That is interesting. I really love it myself, so I appreciate qualified comments about its sound from others. Thanks.

[dannycanham]

Would anyone mind giving me a step by step guide as to how to install the via drivers for the an onkyo 200 so I can get auto frequency. My attempts at removing the onkyo drivers and manually installing the via haven't worked so far. The via drivers looked like they installed however the via audio deck did not find any device.

[dannycanham]

So where are all the capacitors on the cantatis then?

[Fidelio]

So where are all the capacitors on the cantatis then?

The yellow ones.

[Fidelio]

I have ordered a Cantatis Overture,I have a sneaking suspicion it will be utterly fantastic:)

[mojave]

I have ordered a Cantatis Overture,I have a sneaking suspicion it will be utterly fantastic:)

Anything to report yet on the Cantatis Overture?

[Fidelio]

Anything to report yet on the Cantatis Overture?

Nope, waiting still. I will let you know once I've had an impression.

[dannycanham]

So where are all the capacitors on the cantatis then?

The yellow ones.

Thanks

Does anyone know why they are so small compared to the caps on every over decent looking sound card I have looked at and what the implications may be? There might not be any, it is just that I'm a little suspicious of a card with no reviews and only an infomercial in the BBC music magazine.

I could never get the auto switching working in Windows 7 for my Onkyo se 200 pci ltd card. I could get the button to show up but it just caused instability. Shame. The auto switching seems like a very useful option that has been much touted. Still very nice card though. Sounds great through my Roksan Caspian amp and Dali 9 speakers. I'm very susceptible to fatigue and apart from during a necessary (and sometimes quite long) warm up time it has been one of the most enjoyable of the many sub £1000 cd player or sound card options I have heard. Hours pass by easily. Possibly not one for those who favour a bias towards detail though.

[Fidelio]

Danny; did you install the newest VIA drivers? The trick to getting this right in Win7 is to unpack the drivers, install them by using Windows' driver install feature (device manager-card-install driver), and not the setup from VIA. Then just copy the VIA control panel app to e.g. Program Files and run it from there. Set 24bit in Windows sound control panel, set auto change rate in the VIA control panel, and you're good to go.

[Fidelio]

Would be nice, though, to see som highres pictures to check out more details. Or listen to one 

Not my pics; will take some when I get my camera back.

[Mark]

Cantatis Overture 192 Soundcard:
I haven't heard it or any of the other cards - but if anyone of you is looking for the best price - this might be a fair deal: 20% discount ...

http://www.bbcmusicmagazine.com/cantatis-overture-192

http://snipurl.com/BBCMM20 + discount code ‘BBCMM20’ (they say it works with amazon too)

Here you can find some more detailed pics of the DACs etc:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=306851

[Robin Hood]

So what are the choices of PCI soundcards for Engine 4? and which of these will provide analog and digital output? 

[PeterSt]

So what are the choices of PCI soundcards for Engine 4?

I guess this question comes a little too soon. I hope the next version will tell more about that (or otherwise the one after that). Currently too many sound cards don't work, while they actually can.

Peter

[Fidelio]

A quick feedback note on the Cantatis card; I will write some more about it later. In the flesh, the card looks really good, well built in every sense. I noticed that my card doesn't have the same output caps as the one on the official photos; that one uses a couple of Nichion Muse FZ, whereas my have some blue ones I didn't recognize. Emailing Cantatis, I got a quick and informative reply: some of the cards (the first ones probably) have the Nichion caps, whereas the later ones use the blue Panasonic FC caps. Cantatis said they sound somewhat better than the Nichions, and have lower ESR. Anyway.

I have only used the card with y5-02 and Engine #3 so far. To put it simply, it sounds very, very good. A different league than the Onkyo and Audiotraks actually. Detailed, snappy, rhythmic sound; tuneful bass and great voices. Films sound much better as well, words are easier to pick up. This card looks like a real killer. And, oh, stereo separation seems much better than the Onkyo, everything is more "there". Big ups to Cantatis.

[Mark]

Fidelio, you say the Cantatis Overture 192 is better than the "Audiotraks" - have you heard the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 Special Edition, too? http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/prodigy_hd2.html
It has fully discreet Burson Audio dual opamps.

Can anyone tell me if discreet Audio opamps are always significantly better than IC opamps? Especially the Bursons?

[PeterSt]

Hi Mark,

What about OpAmps always being the worst ?
So in general yes, a discrete amplification (for a DAC) should be better always. This doesn't say the Burson is the best solution once you could design from the start, but it is generally taken that they always improve the sound significantly when they replace the normally assembled OpAmp (which is what the modules are made for).

An OpAmp sounds "mathematical". It has sibilance. It annoys. But this is nothing much new.
Peter

[manisandher]

An OpAmp sounds "mathematical". It has sibilance. It annoys.

You'd better change your power amps then 

Mani.

[PeterSt]

I don't have OpAmps in them ...

Nor did I have in my before (transistors), nor in my before-before-before (FETs).

No matter what, an OpAmp can have 0.00001% whatever HD ... still they don't "work". This should be a case of not knowing how to measure (??).

Btw, notice that this is nothing personal or objective. It *is* a case of pointing out to eachother what to listen for and what tracks to play to show "it" (whatever it is about). Loads of experiences are needed for that. But after being able to point out to eachother I *never* encountered someone where we both didn't agree 100% about everything. I think you were there Mani, it is actually very easy.

Peter


PS: With which I didn't try to say my amps are the absolute best. They probably are not, but suit me sufficiently enough to do everything I need (which of course includes judging XXHighEnd / the NOS1).

[manisandher]

Still 

Hey Peter, I thought the BD-Design CrazyAs that you're using were chip amps, based on the LM3886. If they aren't, then I apologise profusely...

In any event, I've been meaning to do a write up of my experience coming over to your place. Unfortunately, work is just too busy right now (I'm currently in Barcelona, preparing to speak to 600 top guys from Philips on Tuesday!). But I will say that I loved the sound of your setup...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hi Mani,

Of course those are chip amps, but I don't call that opamps.
And you know what ? these chip amps measure near 1% harmonic distortion (max) a bit depending on how they are used (gain). Still they sound neutral to me, but they are FAST (which is the consistent objective in my current setup) and they have a nice 200KHz bandwidth. Also, they are completely without audible noise (although it sure can be measured) and they use 15W or so, idle. The latter was the real objective, and after trying them all in that leage (except for your Hypex) they just were the best. Not by a little, but by far, because each of them (think class D) has a very nasty behaviour some way or the other. We (Bert, me, Gerner) really tried and compared over many sessions, but they do something to the sound, hum, again annoy, may blast your fuses, shut off your TV and whatever you can think of with this (very) high frequency operations. With this (GainClone) just nothing seems to be wrong. Also take into account that this search was against my existing SS and Bert's tube amp of which he was sure it couldn't be replaced with any saticfactory other type. The point is (I think), once you are, say, rather far in realistic music reproduction, you are over a hurdle which allows you to judge other things. There's no subjectivity anymore, and -like I said before- there is no way two people, no matter their subjective tastes, won't agree on what you perceive and you will *know* automatically what is better and what not. With *is* I mean *is* because it has become easy to compare with normal live instruments. They are not subjective, they *are*.

While I am blabbering around anyway, here is another one I found only recently (last few days), and I didn't know of the phenomenon before :

I realized an improvement which is theoretically jitter-related (in the DAC of course). Btw, I tried that before, but didn't notice anything special at the time. The XXHighEnd version was older though plus this was Vista. Now it is W7 (Engine#3). Now :

I played a jazzy album, and for a first time I noticed how people talked through their horn instruments. While at first I thought someone was talking to me, I realized that the musician was manipulating his sax so it had a kind of voice. You probably can imagine this better with a trumpet (Jazz at the Lincoln may be an example). However, since then this came over me dozens of times, and it is just the way the musician puts his feelings in the instrument. It is really funny sounding, and I never heard it through loudspeakers.
So, this is another proof of the so many steps of improvement potentially there. It will never end I guess (and hope !).

Peter

[pedal]

An OpAmp sounds "mathematical". It has sibilance. It annoys. But this is nothing much new.

Today this is a myth. Opamps used to sound bad, but that is history. I have the very recent opamp models from National in both my preamp and poweramps. The treble is silky and sweet, with body and details like a (quality) tube amp! 

Interesting read by John Atkinson in Stereophile: http://stereophile.com/news/072307national/#

[PeterSt]

Uhm ... I am not sure what the message is, apart from you liking opamps ? Especially the reference to that article makes me wonder whether you have read what I said about it. No matter the ultra low distortion, no matter the ultra high bandwidth, no matter the slew rate being far over suffcient ... they-do-not-sound (but read : we do not know how to measure it --> please dig into Arc Prediction and measuring, which tells us that we measure the exact same in two situations, which are in the base TOTALLY different. And hear hear, why does A.P. sound better ? because I anticipated on this (false means of measuring)).

But let's finalize this by stating that it is of not much use to *talk* about sound. The only thing I can say is that I hope to know what I'm doing which is based on theories and science first, but on empirical findings next which sadly overrules science. That this needs some recreation of science I might not be able to, is another matter. Haha.

But I have a tip for you : Why do you think the internet is overloaded with means of I/V stages (for DACs that is) ? because a 2c opamp can do the job as well ?
Or am I talking non-sense now ? Yes, your old Philips had a 627, but this was then. You won't find anything like that in a current self-respecting DAC, no matter specs have gone sky-high.

Oh, we were talking amps.
Do you think it makes a difference ? or is it perhaps so that all is much more important at the uV level because everything which is amplified after that goes extra-wrong once it *is* wrong.
I explicitly (and ignorantly !) tried, but it can't work.

Peter

[pedal]

But I have a tip for you : Why do you think the internet is overloaded with means of I/V stages (for DACs that is) ? because a 2c opamp can do the job as well ?
Or am I talking non-sense now ?

And I have a tip for you too:
It’s true that many DAC’s implement opamps in a bad way. The explanation is that (from the beginning) many DACs were build by amplifier companies without much DAC knowledge. The fashion was to buy a semi-finished solution. (Chip suppliers like Crystal, sold integrated chips with DAC and opamp). The only thing missing, was the filter, which the end manufacturer could add by own choice.

The problem then, is that all the HF distortion which a DAC chip outputs, enters unfiltered into the opamp. It’s a severe punishment for any opamp, and they start to sound unnatural.
The solution is to change the order: first DAC, then filter, then opamp. This takes more engineering work, but let’s the opamp perform optimal.

SOURCE: An amplifier manufacturer, producing a DAC in the 90s, who actually knew what he was doing.

-------------

To repeat myself: The best opamps sound wonderful when implemented correctly!

[PeterSt]

Ok, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure why, but why not ? haha

But maybe you are around some day. Bring some ties to eat. I'll have a few ready for myself. One can never be sure !

Thanks pedal, always nice to talk to you !
Peter (with greetings from 2010)

[pedal]

But maybe you are around some day. Bring some ties to eat. I'll have a few ready for myself. One can never be sure !

Thanks pedal, always nice to talk to you !Peter (with greetings from 2010)

BTW: I'm not an opamp fundamentalist, but last year I upgraded all the vital opamps inside my pre- and poweramps. I went from the previous "best" models to the very last new generation opamps from National Semiconductors (se link above). The SQ improvment was quite big. The change reminded me somewhat like the sound of a very, very expensive tube preamp. The previous sound was in comparison more "ordinary", the new SQ was slightly "darker" but more organic, more resolved, more body. Fex. cymbals sounds so much more "rich" AND detailed.

I've been a little offline last year, due to kids and work, so havnt been so active here. But it's nice to see that XX gain more and more satiesfied users.

At the moment I'm enjoying the Sabre DAC, but consider me a potentional customer when your filterless DAC is ready for shipping!
You are located in Holland? I have some business there. Not impossible I'll pay you a visit later on.

[Leo]

A quick feedback note on the Cantatis card; ...............
I have only used the card with y5-02 and Engine #3 so far. To put it simply, it sounds very, very good. A different league than the Onkyo and Audiotraks actually. Detailed, snappy, rhythmic sound; tuneful bass and great voices. Films sound much better as well, words are easier to pick up. This card looks like a real killer. And, oh, stereo separation seems much better than the Onkyo, everything is more "there". Big ups to Cantatis.

Hello Fidelio,

I cannot get the Cantatis card going with upsampling, it seems that the Cantatis drivers will only work with fixed sample rates and 88.2 and 176.4 are not in the list I get. Any suggestions (again) ?

thanks,

Leo

ps
in 44.1 it is allready very impressive SQ wise

[Fidelio]

A quick feedback note on the Cantatis card; ...............
I have only used the card with y5-02 and Engine #3 so far. To put it simply, it sounds very, very good. A different league than the Onkyo and Audiotraks actually. Detailed, snappy, rhythmic sound; tuneful bass and great voices. Films sound much better as well, words are easier to pick up. This card looks like a real killer. And, oh, stereo separation seems much better than the Onkyo, everything is more "there". Big ups to Cantatis.

Hello Fidelio,

I cannot get the Cantatis card going with upsampling, it seems that the Cantatis drivers will only work with fixed sample rates and 88.2 and 176.4 are not in the list I get. Any suggestions (again) ?

thanks,

Leo

ps
in 44.1 it is allready very impressive SQ wise

Yes, there is a driver issue, at least under Win 7. It cannot do auto switching, and thus no upsampling in XXHE (except e.g. 96khz for 48khz material of course).

Try getting the standart VIA control panel running and see if it works then:)

[Leo]

Well the helpfull folks at Cantatis prepared a special version of the software and drivers  for Windows 7 which allows for 88.2 and 176.4. Which is impressive treatment of me as customer I think. The only thing is that it is 16 bit as they state that Windows 7 does not allow for 24 bit with these frequencies.

quote:As in Andrew's previous email, Windows 7 only offers us 88.2kHz and 186.4kHz in 16-bit format.

If you want to get the highest quality out of your system then you can set the Overture card to 192kHz, 24-bit (and make sure you do the same in the Windows 7 control panel).

Windows 7 always performs sample rate conversion so your application should still work.

I don't think that is the way Peter sees it but I don't think I could find the correct wording to convince the very nice people of Cantatis (but still ignorant with respect to XX Highend of course )

So any suggestions for the reply to get them on the right track to give me and other Cantatis+Windows7+XX Highend users 176.4 kHz + 24 bits ?

thanks,

Leo

[PeterSt]

I'm not sure what to say.

Of course W7 has no problem with 24 bits (or 32) at any rate, and of course W7 doesn't resample as long as you don't allow the W7 audio engine to jump in (meaning : address the device exclusively and it won't).

Windows 7 always performs sample rate conversion so your application should still work.

Indeed. Also when (in Shared Mode) the output is set to 24/192 and it is fed with 24/192.

As in Andrew's previous email, Windows 7 only offers us 88.2kHz and 186.4kHz in 16-bit format.

It really beats me where this is coming from.

The only thing Cantatis must do is allowing for automatic sample rate setting, and don't think about it. All other applied "thinking" will (obviously) be in the wrong direction. Vista/W2008/W7 just digs everything, as long as Exclusive Mode is used. Do NOT look at those possible settings, which are output settings where the OS resamples to, at your command. and only in Shared Mode.

I hope this helps !
Peter

[Fidelio]

Well the helpfull folks at Cantatis prepared a special version of the software and drivers  for Windows 7 which allows for 88.2 and 176.4.

Could you upload this software so I could try it m8? Also, what do you think of the Cantatis' analogue outs?

[hubsand]

Those Burson OpAmps are seriously well above the calibre of every other op-amp you can shake a stick at. I auditioned dozens in an offboard DAC recently, and the Bursons were night and day better than, for instance, dual OPA627s. As far as I'm concerned, everywhere you can put a Burson OA, put one in: they're just amazingly transformative. If all OAs sounded that good, they wouldn't have the iffy reputation!

I find it hard to believe that the Burson-ised card would just thrash similarly specified competition . . . looks like we need a UK 'bake-off'

As much of an issue as the parts spec is the power supply, though: the same people that stock the modded HD2 cards now do a linear regulated PSU for use with a Mini ITX board: http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/media_server_pc.html

[Leo]

Well the helpfull folks at Cantatis prepared a special version of the software and drivers  for Windows 7 which allows for 88.2 and 176.4.

Could you upload this software so I could try it m8? Also, what do you think of the Cantatis' analogue outs?

Hi Fidelio,

it is in the attachment !

Leo

[Fidelio]

Thx m8!

[ivo]

Talking about opamp impact on SQ these days.....

I replaced the stock ones in my Dr.DAC2 (Audiotrak) to OPA627BP and AD797BRZ and you know.... the sound changed dramatically. I started to revisit my CDs.... it was like if I have bought something new in my setup and actually I did - these were several opamps...

One small step....

Ivo

[Leo]

This is the latest reply from Cantatis, their driver does not allow for exclusive mode.

Hi Leo,
 
The Overture 192 audio driver is a traditional Microsoft WDM driver and has been tried and tested for many years on Windows systems from Windows 98 onwards. This means that it is very robust, very high performance and is acknowledged as "bit perfect" and essentially "bug free".
 
The audio system in Windows Vista has a limitation in that it does not allow you to select a sample rate of 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz from the playback devices control panel so these are not available in the Overture 192 Control Application in Windows Vista.
 
Windows 7 does allow selection of these rates from the control panel but only at 16-bits so again, they are not available in the Overture 192 Control Application in Windows 7 (we gave you a "special" version of the application that allows you to select these rates at 16-bits). The Windows 7 platform is still in the process of being developed by Microsoft and the audio part of the operating system is still subject to some changes by Microsoft at this time so this might change.
 
Note that as the Overture 192 audio driver is a highly reliable and well tested WDM driver it does not support the new WASAPI interface that allows for "exclusive mode" access to the device driver so you must select the desired sample rate and bit depth using the Overture 192 Control Application and Windows playback devices control panel.
 
Best regards,
 
Steve
Cantatis Support\

So it seems we have to live with the 16 bit for the time being. Any ideas how to work around this, instead of waiting for Microsoft to wake up to 24 bit ?

Leo

 

[PeterSt]

MS isn't going to change anything, because there is NO NEED to change anything.

And ... A WDM driver with some self respect is WASAPI compatible (it has to be, it ought to be, it MUST be when it's signed).

I told him not to think ... now he does it again.

Allow auto-switching does all the jobs needed.

[Leo]

Well, if Cantatis feels that WASAPI is not what a wellbehaved driver should be able to do, that route is closed for now. Which is a pity as I think it is a very good sounding card....

[PeterSt]

What about proving to them that the list of output rates is unrelated to what you can play ? A bit like you see in the picture below;

(or do you/they really think that we're outputting in 16 bits only ? --> that list is totally unrelated !! it is for SHARED mode and we use Exclusive Mode --> this even shows at the top, in dutch though "select the sample rate to use in Shared Mode").

Just allow for auto switching, and the player will set 24/176.4 etc.

HTH!
Peter

[Fidelio]

I don't understand this. My Onkyo card (same VIA Envy chipset as the Cantatis) does 24bit @ 88.2 and 176.4, and auto sample rate switching. This sounds like gobbledygook to me.

Anyway, I think the Cantatis sounds best at 44.1 with 44.1 material. And it does sound fucking good. What a brilliant card.

One weird thing, I cannot get Windows to recognise the Cantatis analogue outs. It only says "S/PDIF" in the Win control panel. No volume control at all in any program. The analogue outs work obviously, but I was wondering if this was intentional. Have asked Cantatis, but no answer. Think I'll nag a little more. Using 7 x64 btw.

[PeterSt]

I don't understand this.

Wrong. Cantatis doesn't understand. But that is what you wanted to say eh ?

The analogue outs work obviously

How would that be obvious if you can't choose it for output in Windows ?? (or maybe I didn't get it)

[mark235]

I don't understand this. My Onkyo card (same VIA Envy chipset as the Cantatis) does 24bit @ 88.2 and 176.4, and auto sample rate switching. This sounds like gobbledygook to me.

Anyway, I think the Cantatis sounds best at 44.1 with 44.1 material. And it does sound fucking good. What a brilliant card.

One weird thing, I cannot get Windows to recognise the Cantatis analogue outs. It only says "S/PDIF" in the Win control panel. No volume control at all in any program. The analogue outs work obviously, but I was wondering if this was intentional. Have asked Cantatis, but no answer. Think I'll nag a little more. Using 7 x64 btw.

Fidelio, can you elaborate further on the SQ difference between the Onkyo and the Overture 192? I currently own an Asus Xonar D2 card, but find the highs / treble quite fatigueing. I almost bought the Onkyo from the wavio shop this afternoon, since that card is known for its laid back sound. Now I'm wondering whether the Overture might be the better choice. Is the Overture laid back? I'm very curious how the top end of this card is compared to C-Media based sound cards.

[Fidelio]

The analogue outs work obviously

How would that be obvious if you can't choose it for output in Windows ?? (or maybe I didn't get it)

Obviously - since I get sound I was perhaps wondering if this is simply the way Cantatis have implemented it. However, I suspect that if I try the headamp without a volume control then 

Fidelio, can you elaborate further on the SQ difference between the Onkyo and the Overture 192? I currently own an Asus Xonar D2 card, but find the highs / treble quite fatigueing. I almost bought the Onkyo from the wavio shop this afternoon, since that card is known for its laid back sound. Now I'm wondering whether the Overture might be the better choice. Is the Overture laid back? I'm very curious how the top end of this card is compared to C-Media based sound cards.

The Cantatis is miles better than the Onkyo, they are just in two completely different leagues. The Cantatis is much better defined and detailed, but much more natural than the Onkyo. I do agree that the Onkyo can sound "laid back", and the Cantatis more "upfront", but the Cantatis is much better to listen to during long listening sessions, much less fatigue than the Onkyo.

The highs on the Cantatis are crisp, clean and airy, and very very natural, perhaps its best part of all. I love this card, as you might have gathered  A big @ Cantatis, understanding how Windows audio works or not, for £300 this must be the biggest bargain ever in hi-fi.

[Leo]

I agree with Fidelio that the Cantatis is quite a bit better than the Onkyo card

[mark235]

Thanks guys, it's clear now.
I'll pick up an ex demo overture soon and let you know how it compares against my Xonar D2

[den]

Hello, first my english is not very well so i´m sorry. I´m looking for a soundcard, i had a xfi extreme music and now an asus xonar d2, but i´m not very happy with the asus. I read that the onkyo se 200 was a very good card, but later Fidelio saids that the cantatis it´s more better than the onkyo. Fidelio, the cantatis hasn´t got spdif in or it´s posible conect a spdif in. Really it´s so good the cantatis in comparison with the onkyo? Thanks and sorry for my english.

[Fidelio]

Hi;

Googling one's way to forums are we?  Like I said before, the Cantatis is miles better than the Onkyo. They are releasing an add-on card with s/pdif in as well actually, and one with analogue in. Toccata or something like that.

[den]

Thank you very much for answer so fast. Yes, I found this forum in google, and then i discovered the onkyo and cantatis. Well, then I´ll bought the cantatis and after, the spdif in expansion. I am very excited with this card, Do you know any store apart of the cantatis´ website?

[Marcin_gps]

Hi,

Is there anything better than Cantatis Overture available? I'm searching for replacement of my USB-based M-Audio Transit to feed external DAC. However Cantatis may be better than my external DAC, I wouldn't be surprised...

[Telstar]

Hi,
Is there anything better than Cantatis Overture available?

Seems not

[Marcin_gps]

There is also Onkyo Wavio SE-200PCI Limited Edition

http://www.onkyowavio.com/11-onkyo-wavio-se-200pci-ltd.html

But I read that it uses VLSC that kind of degrades SQ
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/technology/glossary/vlsc.html

What do you think?
It looks like a good ground for mods

[JohanZ]

There is also : Audiotrak HD2 with 2xLT1364 ans 1x LT1361

[ed linssen]

There is also : Audiotrak HD2 with 2xLT1364 ans 1x LT1361
[/quote


Hi Johan,

I have worked for about a year with this fine card. On Vista. With the early Beta driver .978.
But after switching to W7 64bits ult. and the latest HD2driver 1.08 the fun is over. After the first restart I get beautiful BSOD's. Problem is only gone after un-installing of the driver and installing my second card, Asus Essence ST, with its drivers and I am back in business.
But NO Quad Arc Prediction, just two times works(with ticks)! Using SPDIF out. This is because of the restriction of the missing sample freq. as 88.2 and  176.4.on the Asus card.
When using the built-in dac of the card with the anal. outs I can do all the tricks because the card itselves resamples in that case.
But that is not what I always want. I want to use my seperate dacs as well! That means dig. out!
So, problems should be gone when using the HD2-dig out, because this cards does everything between 44.1 and 192-16/24bits!
Can you tell me how you get your card working on w7 ult. 64bits(or is it 32bits?). What driver do you use?
Hope you can help ,

Ed

[ed linssen]

Hi All!

I know some of you out there have Audiotrak HD2 or Asus essence st in their system.
I mentioned in an other thread some problems I have using those cards.
Working with analog out, is reasonable satisfying. Playing a litlle with different opamps etc. However when trying to feed some extern DAC through SPDIF-out of the cards, the following problems occur both with engine 3 and 4 on W7/64bits:

A.P. Quad gives no sound, though the pointer moves. So NO playback sound! Double is fine.
The Essence ST gives ticks every now and then. Not through the analog rca-outputs.

Maybe one of you deals with the same problems?
Please let me know

Ed

[mark235]

Thanks guys, it's clear now.
I'll pick up an ex demo overture soon and let you know how it compares against my Xonar D2

I got tired of waiting for an ex demo overture to appear on ebay, so I ordered a new one from hifiheadphones.co.uk
it's on it's way to Holland now :-).
Can't wait to compare it against my Xonar D2.
Will let you know how it sounds on my system, which is made up of a Marantz SR7400 and Wharfedale 9 speakers (9.5, 9.1, 9.CM)

[mark235]

OK, well thanks to the ash cloud the shipping to a bit longer than expected but it's now finally arrived.
I've been running the card for about 10 hours now and here are my thoughts on how it performs compared to an Asus Xonar D2:
The sound is slightly smoother, slightly more detailed, and definitely less agressive.
I can now listen to music for more than an hour without listening fatigue.
It's not just the highs that are more forgiving, the whole sound is more relaxed.
Stereo seperation on the Cantatis is a bit better than the Xonar, but the difference is small.
Perhaps if I get better speakers, the differences between the cards will be more noticable.

Whether the Cantatis is worth the extra €100 over the Xonar mostly depends on your listening preferences.
If you're looking for the best card in stereo, get the cantatis.
If you can live with the more "upfront" sound of the Xonar, or actually prefer this, then the Xonar is the better choice.
I use the Xonar and the Cantatis side by side in my pc now, and prefer the Xonar's analogue outs for movie watching.
This is not because the cantatis lacks 5.1 analogue outputs, but because the aggresiveness of the xonar actually works out well when watching movies.
It makes movies sound a bit more dynamic.
I drove both cards in 2 channel and watched a movie to compare them properly this way.

If you are looking for a decent step up in stereo sound from your pc, then the cantatis is a fine choice.

[stoneman]

All this talk of Cantatis/Xonar/HD2SE, any views on whether they (or any other card for that matter) would make a significant improvement in SQ vs my current L22 please?

regards
Andy

[Marcin_gps]

I just got Cantatis Overture sound card and I'm pretty shocked that I can't achieve decent buffer sizes with it. Actually, M-Audio  Transit (USB) that I've used so far could play at 64 samples without any glitches (24/44, Q1=1, Adaptive Mode) while Cantatis' lowest buffer size that I managed to squeeze is 512 samples (24/44, Q1=1, Adaptive Mode). I thought that it's a matter of performance, so I overclocked my CPU to 3.8GHz (4 cores, 4GB of DDRIII 2000MHz modules) and guess what - nothing has changed! That leads me to conclusion: drivers' "performance" is more important than overall performance of a PC But there is one thing that astonishes me - Leo reported that he could play at 4 samples (special mode) with the same sound card and slower PC - what the hell?

It's worth mentioning that with ASIO4ALL I can play at 64 samples with absolutely no cracks.

[PietPara]

Hi,

I have the Xonar Essence ST and recently installed the latest beta drivers which now support 88.2 and 176.4 kHz.
However, from the Xonar Control Center you cannot select these sampling rates and it is said in the forum at Asus that the sample rates get automatically selected now, and from what I understand only when using ASIO.
I am unfamiliar with ASIO. I'd like to know if XXHighEnd can now be used at these rates and how I can check this.
I have tried them and hear the music but does this mean it is actually playing at these rates without upsampling to 192 or 96 kHz?

Any help is appreciated.
PietPara

[Telstar]

Try it, it should work. If not, pester asus support.

[Marcin_gps]

I think it plays at those rates Could you give me a link to these beta drivers?

EDIT
Ok, got it

[PeterSt]

The only thing I can think of, is walk into a Feedback shop or anything, and connect the digital output to a Pro device which will show the sample rate. But hmm ... this still won't tell a thing about the internal sample rate at using the analog outs.

[PietPara]

Try it, it should work. If not, pester asus support.

I have tried it and all I can say is that I heard the music just fine, but I don't know if this means it is actually processing he 88.2 or 176.4 signals or not, or just upsampling.
The only reason I think it just may work is that before I had these drivers I never tried at these sampling rates without the XXHighEnd option to upsample to 96 or 192 in the settings because I thought I had read somewhere in the XXHighEnd tooltips or forum that you would hear an awful sound if the DAC would not support 88.2 or 176.4 kHz. Not sure where I read it.

In any case, my questions are then:
1) Can someone confirm that the Double or Quad wouldn't work if the DAC wouldn't support it?
2) How would one use ASIO with XXHighEnd?

thanks a lot guys
PietPara

[PeterSt]

1) Can someone confirm that the Double or Quad wouldn't work if the DAC wouldn't support it?

Nobody can. This is because before the DAC you have the soundcard (no matter the DAC is *on* the soundcard, as it is in your case), and when the soundcard resamples to what the DAC wants, you can't see it. "DAC wants" is strangely expressed though, because the DAC (generally) can do anything. It is the selection of the modes/samplerates in front of the DAC which could be more work for the developer, than letting an SRC do the job again in front of that.

Talking about SRCs ... when this is an oversampling DAC (and of course it is) you can wonder whether you should bother. Either that or an SRC solution (to attack jitter) will vaguen so much that you probably won't hear the difference anyway. I mean, in such a case your 176.4 will be turned into something else anyway.

Peter

[Marcin_gps]

I just wanted to say that Cantatis released new drivers for Overture sound card. I'm sitting jawdropped. You may ask why? I'll tell you. So far, I haven't been able to go below 1024 samples in adaptive mode and now I'm playing at 32 samples and Q1=-4 with QAP - no clicks Why am I writing this? To confirm my previous hypothesis, that drivers' performance is the most important thing when it comes to low latency playback. Of course, Peter knew that before

[Marcin_gps]

I've just flashed my Cantatis Overture sound card to Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 hifi and it's working! Native ASIO drivers and KS work, even with 48 samples, There is one problem though:

- 44kHz (88,2,176) playback works, 48kHz (and multipliers that is 96,192) don't work properly. It's like listening to music in 'slow motion'. I guess that Prodigy 7.1 hifi has different clock on board for 48 and its multipliers.

I'd be very greatful if someone with Juli@ card could take a picture of EEPROM offsets. Juli@ has the same clocks as Cantatis, so my assumption is that it'd work for 48kHz playback as well.

* In order to do so, you need to run eeprw.exe (enclosed) in 'real' DOS mode, press 9 and take a picture of Juli@'s offsets. That's it, it'd take few seconds. (enclosed you will see EEPROM for Cantatis. I need offset values for JULi@)

* Note that eeprw works only under 'real' DOS mode, you can't run it from windows. In order to run DOS, there is a tool called  HP USB Disk Storage Format Tool + win98boot files (enclosed). With these 2 things you can prepare bootable usb flash. After a 'start disk' is created, copy eeprw to your flash drive, restart pc and boot from it.

Thank you in advance for help,
Marcin

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Hold on.........

 

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Here you are..............

[Marcin_gps]

Roy, you're the best!

THANKS 

[Marcin_gps]

Guys from Cantatis finally gave me some valueable tip I don't use their control panel, because it doesn't work in W2008 at all. I installed the drivers only. This is very simple tweak and for me - a life saver!!!

What you need to do is:

Search for the following registry keys in regedit:

VA_CPLAutoSR (set to 0 = no auto sample rate, 1 = auto sample rate)
VA_CPLSelectSR (set as follows, in hexadecimal, I set to 0x0e that is 192kHz):

0x00: 48 KHz (default)
0x01: 24 KHz
0x02: 12 KHz
0x03: 9.6 KHz
0x04: 32 KHz
0x05: 16 KHz
0x06: 8 KHz
0x07: 96 KHz
0x0E: 192 KHz
0x0f: 64 KHz
0x08: 44.1 KHz
0x09: 22.05 KHz
0x0A: 11.025 KHz
0x0B: 88.2 KHz
0x0C: 176.4 KHz


Now I don't have to change the damn thing every time I want to listen to some different sample rates stuff.

Enjoy!

Marcin

[Leo]

Nice !

Leo