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Author Topic: 9y-5(whatever) with Arc Prediction v Linn Records 24/96 no arc prediction  (Read 9252 times)
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boleary
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« on: February 03, 2010, 12:45:08 pm »

Okay so my "favorite sound" continues to be 9y-5, engine 3, with arc prediction. To me it sounds amazingly "true" or natural or analogue like. Recently I've been playing a recording I purchased from Linn Records ( http://www.linnrecords.com/ ) which I downloaded from their site in 24/96 flac format. It's Marianne Thorsen's Mozart violin concertos. Given my dac I can't use Ap when playing this file. However, it too sounds very very good but not in the same way as my "favorite sound". Rather than true, natural, or analogue like, I'd call the Linn Records recording exceptionally detailed with great balance and separation between the instruments. It is absolutely the best "digital" sound I've heard. It's so good that I think its not a sound that one wants to go beyond or change because it sounds digital. Rather it is a wonderful alternative to the more natural sound of AP, engine 3, especially for classical music. What's remarkable about it is the balance between instruments. With redbook recordings, engine 3 with no AP, this balance just does not exist and whats "bad" to my ears about digital (harsh, edgy with some part of the music too articulated compared to the rest (no balance) of the music) jumps out at me.

On the other hand I have a high res recording of the Yes Album and that recording just sounds awful. Way to bright and "tinny" sounding, so I don't get why the Mozart recording is so different.

Anyone else compared a Linn recording to 9y5, AP, engine 3?
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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 01:50:57 pm »

Hey, this is very nice you bring up the subject like this, because I too compared explicitly the other day, and with rather similar material. I didn't feel like posting about it, because I had some inconsistent results. Here they are :

Earlier on, this was Vista/Engine#3, I listened to much redbook material, and quite some highres. Not for explicit comparison, but let's say because they passed my Library Area. Each and every time I liked redbook (with QAP of course) better, as if it was more to the basics. Not manipulated. This, while obviously QAP manipulates, whereas the native hires albums should not.

The other day I had a very "persistent" visitor over, and he claimed that native hires is better as long as you use the proper(ly recorded) material. And so, we tested one album which I have in both redbook and hires, and it was a Linn recording. The hires clearly won.
I was a kind of puzzled.

A "kind of", because coincidentally the day before (or was it my preparation for this visitor) I explcitly compared already, and I did this with ... that same Yes album. I chose to start with the redbook version (QAP) and ... it sounded AWFUL. Hmm ... Next I played the hires version, and ... it still didn't sound good to me at all, but way better than AQP at least.
I played this album quite some times before, and I never noticed its bad sound.

Now, what to make of this all ?
What I didn't tell, is that the tests from "the other day" (above) were with Kernel Streaming (Engine#4). I didn't go back and re-check with Engine#3, but it is the only explanation I have at this moment : with Engine#4 the results seem to be the oter way around, plus the Yes album sounds lousy either way (QAP or native hires).

Notice that I couldn't do anything else than admit within 10 seconds the Linn comparison won for the hires with ease.


I am close to being able to play Engine#4 again (completely rewritten), so I guess I will spend some time on further comparisons in due time.
Peter
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boleary
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 02:16:04 pm »

Wow, your experience is interesting. I'd really like to hear your impression of engine 3, Ap versus a Linn recording, if you have time of course, and only after kernel streaming has been absolutely perfected so I can get my hiface working!  Happy Wink.

Also, is there an explanation for why the Linn high res is better than the Yes high res?
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 02:34:35 pm »

Hi Boleary,

I also did some testing,
Like you did with #3Engine DAP (Lat.2048) wich I also prefer for now.
I think I stay with #3Engine for a little while, then make a switch to KS with #4Engine.
All music styles will pass my ears that way.
But have to admit, hands off #3Engine for now, haha
So think Peter did some rewriting on 4, it sure has potential.
Don't give up on that, yet.


I got hold of a some of Sheffield LP-recordings (tnx ;-))
Did played them last night but could not play to loud, but what I heard was sure good Q.
Good separation, a thing #4Engine lacks or has to much, its to wild somehow.


Also in today, some real chill HQ Tech-House albums (vinyl)
Terry Lee Brown Jr. - Terry's Cafe

God Damm, it sure sets new standards, definitely !

(Foottapping effect is really high)
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 02:54:24 pm »

Sounds great Roy. Are you using AP with the high res material? Just wondering.
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 03:13:36 pm »

I don't think it can ! no
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W10-14393.0 - August 18, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach *III* Stealth LPS PC -> *Xeon Scalable 14/28 core* with Hyperthreading On (*set to 10/20 cores*) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *140.19*  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *35* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush^2 A: B-W & Y-R, B: B-W* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 03:16:20 pm »

Sounds great Roy. Are you using AP with the high res material? Just wondering.

No the max for my DAC is 88.2Khz, So can only do DAP on 16/44 (redbook)
I think HiRez material is little useless for now (for me)
There are a lot a different processes to make hirez, not all are good.
So out of 200 albums maybe 25-50 are decent sounding, do you know wich one before buying.
This becomes a costly journey, there should be more info about the "means" of making such albums. (equip. used)
However this also says nothing about how an album will perform on your system.
Eventually most of these albums are the clay in hands of studio-engineers, I could be anything.
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 03:18:25 pm »

I don't think it can ! no

referring too ....?
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 03:52:27 pm »

I have been recommended a piano album in 24/192 from Linn for its quality, but I didnt buy it yet.
I'll try to find which one was and post it.

I think a better comparison with OS dacs would be between native 24/174-192 and QAP.
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 04:37:00 pm »

I don't think it can ! no

referring too ....?

AP on hires. Doesn't work (yet) because "doubling" hires is not allowed (yet).
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XXHighEnd Mach *III* Stealth LPS PC -> *Xeon Scalable 14/28 core* with Hyperthreading On (*set to 10/20 cores*) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *140.19*  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *35* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush^2 A: B-W & Y-R, B: B-W* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 06:27:09 pm »

The other day I had a very "persistent" visitor over...

You know Peter, you just shouldn't let such people through the door...

FWIW, whenever I've compared a Linn hirez (24/88.2, 24/96 and 24/192) or an HRx 24/176.4 to the equivalent 16/44.1 with QAP, I've preferred the hirez. (The Linn 24/88.2 and HRx 24/176.4 files were mastered on the same machine that I'm listening to them on - I'm not sure about the Linn 24/96 and 24/192 files.)

With my DAC, QAP definitely sounds more detailed than with no upsampling - I wouldn't call it more analogue... there's just more life in the music, if that makes sense. It certainly brings 16/44.1 files closer to their hirez Linn and HRx equivalents. Any other form of upsampling that I've tried takes 16/44.1 files further away from their hirez equivalents... just killing the sound and making it dull to listen to, with no life whatsoever.

Mani.
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 06:57:19 pm »

FWIW, whenever I've compared a Linn hirez (24/88.2, 24/96 and 24/192) or an HRx 24/176.4 to the equivalent 16/44.1 with QAP, I've preferred the hirez. (The Linn 24/88.2 and HRx 24/176.4 files were mastered on the same machine that I'm listening to them on - I'm not sure about the Linn 24/96 and 24/192 files.)

Thanks Mani, this really helps.
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 06:16:39 pm »

A good track to try is track #5 on the 'Beethoven Piano Concertos 3, 4 & 5' recording (Linn CKD 336). Of course, the music itself may not rock everyone's boat, although I have to say that Beethoven is my favourite composer.

You can download a number of different versions of this track (all FLAC):
1) 16/44.1 (HDCD-encoded)
2) 24/96
3) 24/192

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that 1) and 2) are derived directly from 3) by decimation. If this is the case, then Linn must have used a PM Model Two to create 1)... because it's HDCD-encoded. This gives me a bit of confidence that the job's been done right.

1) with QAP comes closer to 3) than any other configuration in XXHE. However, it's still not as good. Although I think the tonal balance is very similar, it's just a tad flatter, with a bit less life. Could this be due to the decimation process? Maybe. But whatever is lost is not regained by AP.

Mani.

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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 04:18:19 pm »

Well this will be controversial for sure. I see Boleary is impressed with Marianne Thorsen's Mozart violin concertos and I agree they are superb but they are not Linn recordings they are from 2L in Norway and resold by Linn. 2L are fantatical about sound quality and all the 2L downloads I have are superb. Now to be controversial - Linn recordings are very good but those I have listened to so far (and certainly a limited number) are not the best sound quality I have heard on my system. I downloaded from the Linn site test tracks "All My Sins" and "Love is Real" in 16/44 and 24/88 to check the difference in sound quality using 9y-4. Well I listened to them and I have to say I was disappointed in the recording quality. Now don't get me wrong they are good but I can hear clearly at higher sound levels shhhh distortion on female vocals. I think (not sure though) that the 24/88 are slightly better (than 16/44 upsampled to 88 with arc perdiction) but not in any important way with that material. So then I put on Carol Kidd "The Night We Called It A day" a Linn recording of course and it sounds superb. But even then and being fastidious at higher sound levels some schhh on female vocal. OK OK maybe I am being picky it is after all a Superb recording.

But then I put on my all time 16/44 sound quality reference recording "Jazz Me" put together with fanatical care and attention to sound quality by Dick Olsher and sung by is lovely wife Lesley. No trace of schhhh on vocals and just soooo relaxing to listen to. All the natural ambience is retained in this recording it is an absolute gem. Perhaps it is not realistic to expect a larger company like Linn to be able to produce recordings of this extreme quality but Linn are still one of the best of the rest.

There are other recordings that on my system anyway are extremely special sound quality  -  they are 24/96 recordings downloaded from the iTrax site. Another small company that is fanatical about sound recording quality and has superb music for me anyway. At the moment I am listening to "Blues Head" "That Woman She's Gone" and it is superlative just so smooth and relaxing to listen to  -  there is no hint of shhh on vocals. But the one thing these iTrax downloads have that I have not heard on any other recordings is the dynamic range - sitting there listening suddenly you will hear a plucked string or similar and it takes your breath away just so realistic. Also (and strange maybe) listening in another room it really does strike you how good the dynamics are.

I can't make a side by side comparison of the highest quality recordings in 16/44 and 24/96 but 24/96 sounds really special to me provided always that the quality of the recording is of the highest order  -  to my ears anyway it is only then that it is worth going for 24/96. By the way my DAC will only go to 18 bits but it is OK up to 96 and has no filtering at all.

A few months ago I could not have heard these differences and it was only when I got engine#3 and 9y-4 working on my system that I can sit back and be very picky.

All the best

P
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 10:06:24 am »

Well this will be controversial for sure. I see Boleary is impressed with Marianne Thorsen's Mozart violin concertos and I agree they are superb but they are not Linn recordings they are from 2L in Norway and resold by Linn. 2L are fantatical about sound quality and all the 2L downloads I have are superb. Now to be controversial - Linn recordings are very good but those I have listened to so far (and certainly a limited number) are not the best sound quality I have heard on my system. I downloaded from the Linn site test tracks "All My Sins" and "Love is Real" in 16/44 and 24/88 to check the difference in sound quality using 9y-4. Well I listened to them and I have to say I was disappointed in the recording quality. Now don't get me wrong they are good but I can hear clearly at higher sound levels shhhh distortion on female vocals. I think (not sure though) that the 24/88 are slightly better (than 16/44 upsampled to 88 with arc perdiction) but not in any important way with that material. So then I put on Carol Kidd "The Night We Called It A day" a Linn recording of course and it sounds superb. But even then and being fastidious at higher sound levels some schhh on female vocal. OK OK maybe I am being picky it is after all a Superb recording.

But then I put on my all time 16/44 sound quality reference recording "Jazz Me" put together with fanatical care and attention to sound quality by Dick Olsher and sung by is lovely wife Lesley. No trace of schhhh on vocals and just soooo relaxing to listen to. All the natural ambience is retained in this recording it is an absolute gem. Perhaps it is not realistic to expect a larger company like Linn to be able to produce recordings of this extreme quality but Linn are still one of the best of the rest.

There are other recordings that on my system anyway are extremely special sound quality  -  they are 24/96 recordings downloaded from the iTrax site. Another small company that is fanatical about sound recording quality and has superb music for me anyway. At the moment I am listening to "Blues Head" "That Woman She's Gone" and it is superlative just so smooth and relaxing to listen to  -  there is no hint of shhh on vocals. But the one thing these iTrax downloads have that I have not heard on any other recordings is the dynamic range - sitting there listening suddenly you will hear a plucked string or similar and it takes your breath away just so realistic. Also (and strange maybe) listening in another room it really does strike you how good the dynamics are.

I can't make a side by side comparison of the highest quality recordings in 16/44 and 24/96 but 24/96 sounds really special to me provided always that the quality of the recording is of the highest order  -  to my ears anyway it is only then that it is worth going for 24/96. By the way my DAC will only go to 18 bits but it is OK up to 96 and has no filtering at all.

A few months ago I could not have heard these differences and it was only when I got engine#3 and 9y-4 working on my system that I can sit back and be very picky.

All the best

P
I tried yesterday and today the test records of 2L at 24 Bit/96KHz and I'm very impressed of the tracks. I can confirm your experiences. Thanks a lot for your hints Happy.

Georg
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USB3 Silverstone isolated → Short cable → Intona (Standard) → Clairixia cable
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Mains conditioning without switching controller: RFT Netzregler Nr. 120
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