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Author Topic: How to get the best digital signal from PC?  (Read 49278 times)
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Flecko
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« on: February 11, 2010, 11:31:00 am »

Hi Peter and everyoneelse,
I am using a usb-spdif converter to feed my Chord DSC1100 DAC. Before I was using the spdif out of my rme-hammerfall soundcard but the usb device is better. Now I discovered a special driver for usb-asio from aqvox which sounds realy great. But it costs 100€ so i like to know if there is something better bevor i spend the money on that driver.
With xxhighend, some win7 tweaks and cMP I have now a better spdif-signal than with my Pioneer PD-S06 CD-Player. But it is not that much better. I like to know a few things:
Is there a better way to obtain a spdif signal than with usb-spdif converter?
Do you know a usb-spdif converter using asynchronous mode (my usb-spdif device from hoer-wege is just synchronous)?
What else can I do to improve the sound quality from my PC? I read often that PC must be a lot better even than the best transports. The Pioneer is great but not the best, so there must be some space to improve further.
To my setup:
I have a core2dou with asus pq5 pro board, fanless PSU (150€!), Bluerayburner LG, made some tweaks in device manager, shuted down services, in generel i did what they said on cplay/cmp homepage. I get a delay of 120us with my system. it is ok but i have seen some of you have a much better performance.
Thanks for your help! Greetings Adrian
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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 12:08:45 pm »

Hi there Adrian,

I could go into many details regarding your post, but I guess your own experiences can always tell better (of course, sadly, you expected more out of it). So, let me for now stick to this :

As far as I can tell the HiFace is an USB->SPDIF converter which works asynchronously (around 130 euro). But, it is in the beginning of its life cycle, and many people have problems with it. A WASAPI driver wasn't available until a few days back, and I don't know the status of that at this moment. Now, I am waiting for a HiFace myself in order to at least let it work. When that has been done, I guess it will be a very good converter, just because of its asynchronous operation (if I am right on that one).

So, let's keep in touch. It shouldn't be long from now until I have it (courtesy of boleary).
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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Flecko
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 04:17:38 pm »

Thank you for that information. I just saved 100€ Happy I read in the diyaudio thread. They say it could be connected directly to the usb port. I use 5m usb cable "directly" into my usb-spdif-dac without spdif cable. Whats your experience with digital cable? Is it better to use 5m spdif cable than 5m usb?
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XXHE Settings: | Engine 4 | Adaptive | Buffer=1024 | Q12345=[14,0,0,0,0] | xQ1=1 | Q5=3 | Scheme=3 | Mixed Contiguous with SFS=12 | 176.4kHz32bit | ArcPred + Peakextend | Clock=1ms |
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 04:28:34 pm »

5m USB is better, for sure when asynchronously used. Coincidentally I used 12m myself yesterday to test something, and that still works (isochronously). This was not USB powered of course (4.5m is the maximum for that officlially).

With SPDIF I wouldn't go longer as around 1m.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Tony S
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 08:55:09 pm »

Hi Adrian,

I just started using the Musiland Monitor 02 US dac/usb-spdif converter that does asynchronous quite well at around $135- $150.  I'm still trying to get familiar with the unit, works well as a stand alone dac and enjoying it with my NOS dac.  I haven't had too much time to do some serious listening but from what I'm hearing, in my less than ideal listening room, is quite amazing.  There are other versions, a dac only unit and a converter only unit, that are usb powered.  The 02 is AC powered.  Once I get a chance to do some more listening and trying Peter's latest software upgrade I'll post my thoughts on the Musiland.  Hope this helps

Tony
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 09:13:15 pm »

If I could pitch in here as I have experience of both the Musiland 01US & Hiface units. I'm a tweaker so I bought these with the intention of getting the best sound out of them. Both use asynchronous USB which attracted me.

First, I bought the Musiland & was impressed with the stock sound but then I heard what a difference in SQ I got by supplying an external 5V supply instead of USB 5V. This set me on a path of PS mods - I'll provide links if anyone is interested. The result was a transformation.

BUT, I knew the limitation of the Musiland DAC was the audio clock generation (the various audio clocks are synthesised from one 24MHz clock, AFAIR) & I heard about the HiFace which had this problem addressed - it uses 2 physical low jitter clocks on-board. Stock, this sounded as good as the fully modded Musiland. When I modded the internal PS of the HiFace - it now soared in SQ - smooth & silky, like very good analogue with lots of detail Happy

I can't wait to hear the XXHighEnd through the HiFace Happy

Just my 2c for anybody looking for the best sound out of PC.
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GerardA
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 11:50:16 pm »

Hi John,

That would be very interesting!
I ordered a Hiface, but it seems we all have to wait a long time to get this precious object.
But now Peter made his engine 4 so worderfull I really wondered if a Hiface can still make it sound much better!
Quote
Smooth and silky like very good analogue with lots of detail
So keep us informed on your findings (and your mods!).
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jkeny
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 12:04:41 am »

Hi John,

That would be very interesting!
I ordered a Hiface, but it seems we all have to wait a long time to get this precious object.
But now Peter made his engine 4 so worderfull I really wondered if a Hiface can still make it sound much better!
Of course! Improving the source will greatly improve the playback. Remember XXHighend can only play what it is given.
Quote
Quote
Smooth and silky like very good analogue with lots of detail
So keep us informed on your findings (and your mods!).
[/quote]Here's the link to my mods with pics about half-way into the thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/153191-m2tech-hiface-usb-spdif-24-192khz-asynch.html?highlight=m2tech

John
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PeterSt
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 09:42:35 am »

John, OffTopic what I wonder, is whether you already found where your i2s ground came from ...

For 2 weeks I have been thinking of removing the i2s ground and see what happens, but it is too stupid to even start doing it. Even with the unit (NOS1) open in front of me and the iron hot yesterday, I still didn't do it. Then I read your thread today ...

Thanks,
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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jkeny
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 09:51:23 am »

John, OffTopic what I wonder, is whether you already found where your i2s ground came from ...
I don't know, Peter? I guess it must have been using one or other of the signal pins for returning the ground. What I can say is that I found no noticeable difference in sound with ground connected or not-connected. So, my conclusion was not to continue with a practise that might cause other difficulties as it conferred no sonic benefit.

Quote
For 2 weeks I have been thinking of removing the i2s ground and see what happens, but it is too stupid to even start doing it. Even with the unit (NOS1) open in front of me and the iron hot yesterday, I still didn't do it. Then I read your thread today ...

Thanks,
Peter
I've done many stupid things - some have worked & some have failed - but it's all a learning process Happy

John
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PeterSt
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 09:56:47 am »

Thank you John. Trying, of course, takes 2 seconds only - but if it works it may take quite some time to find out how the ground is flowing, whether that additionally harms, and how things will go in "your house".

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 01:14:34 pm »

Thank you John. Trying, of course, takes 2 seconds only - but if it works it may take quite some time to find out how the ground is flowing, whether that additionally harms, and how things will go in "your house".

Peter
I couldn't have said it better myself! My brief experiment showed me that there was no sonic advantage "in my set-up" to have the ground isolated at the I2S stage. I was using a USB transport - perhaps it would make a difference if the PC ground could have been isolated but with hi-speed USB 2.0 (480Mbps), there is, as yet, no way to galvanically isolate!
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Flecko
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 04:13:57 pm »

Thanks for the information. it is a pitty the m2tech is not relay designed to be a highend converter and still need mods. But it seems worth a try if not something better will show up.
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Software: Windows7 Ultimatex64SP1 | XXHighend 9z9b
Hardware: | Gigabyte X79-UD3 | i7-3820 | 16 GB DDR3 | OS on 128 GB Samsung SSD 830  | Music on 2TB WD Caviar Green | Seasonic X-660

XXHE Settings: | Engine 4 | Adaptive | Buffer=1024 | Q12345=[14,0,0,0,0] | xQ1=1 | Q5=3 | Scheme=3 | Mixed Contiguous with SFS=12 | 176.4kHz32bit | ArcPred + Peakextend | Clock=1ms |
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 04:34:33 pm »

Thanks for the information. it is a pitty the m2tech is not relay designed to be a highend converter and still need mods. But it seems worth a try if not something better will show up.

A highend converter is/will be available BUT do you want to spend thousands of dollars - look to dCS, Wavelength, Empirical Audio - they all have USB products at these prices?
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 02:44:07 pm »

Hello Tony S,

Quote
I just started using the Musiland Monitor 02 US dac/usb-spdif converter that does asynchronous quite well at around $135- $150.  I'm still trying to get familiar with the unit, works well as a stand alone dac and enjoying it with my NOS dac.  I haven't had too much time to do some serious listening but from what I'm hearing, in my less than ideal listening room, is quite amazing.  There are other versions, a dac only unit and a converter only unit, that are usb powered.  The 02 is AC powered.  Once I get a chance to do some more listening and trying Peter's latest software upgrade I'll post my thoughts on the Musiland.  Hope this helps

So, are you still using Musiland 02 US? Are you able to run enigne#4 with it? Describe please your XX setup with this DAC.
I am interested if it is possible to run engine#3 and engine#4 with it in DAP and QAP modes???

Ivo
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Music on internal HDD in FLAC-->LatestXX in QAP + PeakExt Mode[KS,Adaptive,2048,Q1=14,xQ1=1,Sch3,Low,Realtime,15 ms, SFS 2-400, Straight, stop all, MinOS]-->Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64bit-->Intel i5 based laptop [8 GB RAM]-->JKDAC32(HiFace based USB-I2S-DAC)-->Denon PMA-1500AE-->JBL E90 3-way speakers
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