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Author Topic: Am I crazy thinking wav sounds better than flac?  (Read 31007 times)
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DannyD
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« on: February 27, 2010, 06:55:01 pm »

If I recall correctly, XXHE converts to wav before playing so intellectually I think they should sound the same, but I swear wav file sound better, with better imaging in particular.  I was A/B’ing with a fairly golden-eared friend the other day and he agreed.  It’s relatively subtle, but if I had more disc space I’d convert all my flac files to wav.  Am I nuts?
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2010, 07:24:39 pm »

You can be nuts allright, but maby not because of this ? It is the first time I have heard of it though.
So, assuming that your FLAC files are allright :

Theoretically the process of converting them may, say, screw up the memory, or possibly your PC gets in another "mode" (this is what I suspect W7 from). In order to avoid this (if so at all of course), you may do this :

Load an album into the Playlist Area (a FLAC), tick Unattended, and click play. When XXHighEnd has gone and the OSD Time is running, use alt-X to bring back XXHighEnd and next click Stop. Now click Play again. Now, because the conversion already took place before, it is not done again. The converted files are still available. Thus, this would be more "genuinely wav".
Notice that at Quitting XXHE while playback is not going on, the files are removed.

If you really want to make a job of it, you could reboot in between. In that case, use Alt-s to stop the initial playback, reboot, start XXHE and click Play.

?
Peter
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2010, 08:25:18 pm »

There's also a test which works a kind of the other way around :

The output of the conversions goes to the drive where XX sits; Native WAV files normally stay where they are, and which is normally another drive. Now, when you tick "Copy to XX Drive", the native WAV files are *also* copied to the XX drive. No matter nothing needs to be done with them.
So, this eliminates another potential difference; now both the converted and the nor converted files play from the same drive. But keep in mind : "play" means copying them into memory before they are played ...

Peter
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For a general PC :
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 03:02:38 pm »

If I recall correctly, XXHE converts to wav before playing so intellectually I think they should sound the same, but I swear wav file sound better, with better imaging in particular.  I was A/B’ing with a fairly golden-eared friend the other day and he agreed.  It’s relatively subtle, but if I had more disc space I’d convert all my flac files to wav.  Am I nuts?

Hi Danny D! (Danny DeVito?)

Interesting observation. If you are right many audiophiles are gonna start crying because they just ripped their thousand CD's to Flac... [/evil laughter]
Me? I stayed in WAV all my life. Memory is cheap, after all.

But seriously: Flac compression works, among others, because it sumarizes Left/Right information if same amplitude (mono). Mono takes half the space as stereo. This is just a wild guess, but the Flac prosess might influence the most fragile low level signals? The ones who influences on the imaging, in particular.

Or the explaination can be hardware-playback related as Peter mentions.
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 03:15:34 pm »

Quote
but the Flac prosess might influence the most fragile low level signals?

Impossible when the original file and the converted and back converted are 100% equal.

The "process" itself (meaning, at doing it in real time) sure is another matter, but that just is the problem here (XX) ... that doesn't happen.
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2010, 03:58:55 pm »

Impossible when the original file and the converted and back converted are 100% equal.

This is just a wild guess...

By experience I always caveat my speculations!
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 11:08:13 pm »

I don't think ur crazy  Wink

I noticed that WAV sounded better than FLAC on my cowon portable player - more relaxed and natural, actually just a more pleasant listening experience so I decided to save all my CD's as wave.

Perhaps this does not apply on XXHE especially if we have separate drives for OS & data but I am happy with my decision to go with WAV I can still get my entire ( modest ) music collection on one small portable HD or a few big SD cards.
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 03:21:46 am »

Thanks for the vote of confidence on my sanity.  I, too, keep all my music stored as wav... good for the economy, if nothing else.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 08:24:28 am »

Paul Miller, the editor of Hi-Fi Choice and an expert* in digital audio, resently wrote an article about this matter. He confirmed that FLAC and WAV will sound different because they demand difference prosesses from the PC. Basically, he confirmed what XXHighEnd is adressing and what XX users have experienced for a long time, that "bit-perfect" is a myth. Jitter will allways be an issue, creating small/big differences in SQ.

*Miller has his own research lab. He was among the first to study deep into jitter matters. In the process he developed his own software measurement/procedure which he has licensed to many a Hi-Fi manufactuerer and magazines like Stereophile.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 12:38:49 pm »

If there is that possibility of FLAC sounding different from WAV would it not be a good idea to have the player automatically decode the file fully to WAV before playing it back?
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 12:45:12 pm »

This is exactly what XX does!

Mani
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 03:17:53 pm »

Now my dedicated music pc is almost finished I'm about to copy my music files to the HDD on my new pc.

The files were ripped with dBPoweramp in flac on a temporary outboard HDD with a low level or no compression. The HDD in my new pc has lotta space.

I have 3 choices:

1. copy the flac files to the new HDD as they are.

2. convert the flac files to wav and copy them to the HDD. Less processor stress and not much more space needed (25%).

3. rip all CD's (1100) again to wav. This would probably result in a divorce  stop

I would opt for 2. What do you think?

Stanley
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 05:33:22 pm »

Two reasons to wait :

1. 0.9z-7 may solve the whole "problem" (but don't ask me when it will be around);

2. You can batch-convert the whole disc in one go by means of XXHighEnd. But, because there are a few bugs in 0.9z-6, it is *not* preferred to do that right now. Again wait for 0.z9-7 please.
(but maybe other means can batch-convert just the same)

Peter

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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2012, 06:07:15 pm »

(but maybe other means can batch-convert just the same)

dBPoweramp allready has a batch converter.
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2012, 06:59:25 pm »

You can batch-convert the whole disc in one go by means of XXHighEnd. But, because there are a few bugs in 0.9z-6, it is *not* preferred to do that right now. Again wait for 0.z9-7 please.
(but maybe other means can batch-convert just the same)

Peter,
How "bad" is the problem, because I already "de-flacced" some albums (and indeed, for some tracks I get errors, but the majority goes fine)?

Cheers, Eric
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