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Author Topic: Question about stability of data stream in adaptive mode  (Read 7182 times)
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jarek
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« on: June 13, 2010, 10:39:07 pm »

Dear Peter,

I have a question. When playing in adaptive mode (no upsampling, 4x, unattended), my external DAC connected by dual AES loses synchronization and need to resynchronize when next track is starting. Do you have an idea why it is like that, and if something can be done to keep the data stream stable  ?

Strangely, when I switch to the next track by hotkey, the external dac does not lose its synchronization to the sound card ...
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Windows 2008 Server Std 64bit *SP2* / dual boot with Win 7 Professional 64-bit *SP1* on SATAII spinning disk, XX on Spinning Disk, music on SATAII, i5-660 (4 cores) / 16GB RAM / Engine#4 *Adaptive Mode* / Q1/2/3/4/5 = *30*/0/0/0/0 (Dev.Buffer = *4096*) / ClockRes = *0,5ms* / Straight Contiguous SFS = 120 /  *Minimize OS = Off* / *Double Octo* Arc Prediction Upsampling /-> 24/768 Phasure NOS1 async USB DAC -> ARC Ref 40 Preamp -> mainamps.
PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 11:22:33 pm »

Hi Jarek,

A first quick response (maybe too quick ?) ... with Unattended this can't happen. Sheer impossible. Unless ...

For fun, try the same with a Split File size of 60 or so. If then it happens within 30 seconds I'll withdraw the above.

So, just a test first, before I make my statement real firm. But not to forget : Unattended only.

Peter


PS: Right now I am unsure whether you are using a version (which just can be 0.9z-1) which just doesn't result 4x (without unpsampling) into 176400. So, if this was a complaint about 0.9z-1, well, you will still have that problem. This makes things very unreliable.
I'm almost sure you don't have the solution to that. So, you will be outputting 44100. Still, your problem will be the same I think. But it may be more honest for the problem itself not to set the slider to 4x. Just 1x. If then the problem remains, the above applies.
wacko Happy
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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jarek
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 09:14:05 pm »

Peter,

I tried both versions 9zb and 9z1 on x1, x2 and x4, unattended and attended, on different buffers/latencies, different volumes, different Q1, and different temporary file size (60 and 100).

On some CDs - usually those consisting of separately recorded tracks - you can observe that resolution in bits shown on dCS DAC display drops from 24 bit to 0 at a very start of each new track just for a second. Then sometimes DAC needs to resynchronize - this however is not always the case. It needs to sychronize 100/100 on lower Q1, when you move up Q1 for on or two, it is more often but still happens quite often and this is annying (20/100 cases or so), because music is interrupted in this case.

Still DAC always shows 0 bits for a moment just at the beginning of each new track for some CDs...

I think you might be interested in this - see 8-9th second of the movie attached. You will see how dCS DAC behaves (in utattended) between tracks.

Another problem with dCS DAC is that, when I set volume
- on XXHighEnd volume 0 -> dCS DAC shows resolution on 16 bits (XXHIghEnd shows 32 bit)
- on XXHighEnd volume -1.5 -> dCS DAC shows resolution on 17 bits (XXHIghEnd shows 32 bit)
- on XXHighEnd volume -3.0 -> dCS DAC shows resolution on 21 bits (XXHIghEnd shows 32 bit)
- on XXHighEnd volume -4.5 -> dCS DAC shows resolution 24 bits (XXHIghEnd shows 32 bit)
- on XXHighEnd volume -6.0 -> dCS DAC shows resolution 17 bits (XXHIghEnd shows 32 bit)
and this is allways - mo matter what CD you play.

What do you think about it ?

* IMG_0173.MOV (6421.3 KB - downloaded 422 times.)
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Windows 2008 Server Std 64bit *SP2* / dual boot with Win 7 Professional 64-bit *SP1* on SATAII spinning disk, XX on Spinning Disk, music on SATAII, i5-660 (4 cores) / 16GB RAM / Engine#4 *Adaptive Mode* / Q1/2/3/4/5 = *30*/0/0/0/0 (Dev.Buffer = *4096*) / ClockRes = *0,5ms* / Straight Contiguous SFS = 120 /  *Minimize OS = Off* / *Double Octo* Arc Prediction Upsampling /-> 24/768 Phasure NOS1 async USB DAC -> ARC Ref 40 Preamp -> mainamps.
PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 08:13:12 pm »

Hey Jarek - I understand now.

I think there is a rather logical explanation for the resyncs;
The dCS will look ahead as far as possible in the buffer in order to see it has to shut itself off (so to say). Now, the smaller the buffer the less it can see, but it *does* see the silence in the data. So, would it see new data coming up (with the same sample rate and all) it wouldn't do a thing, and let all the clocks running at the speed from before. Something like that.
Notice this is no fiction, because I my self (with the Phasue NOS1) do similar, although a bit the other way around : as long as no explicit change is seen, all keeps on running. This is a. to avoid the time it takes each time to lock and b. to keep the things hot.
Ad a : Almost a necessity because of the so many combinations of sample rates and bit depths. It just would take too much time otherwise (and which may be exactly what bothers you, although I don't think you told that).

About your beautiful list of received bit depths ... yea, isn't that beautiful ! It shows exactly what is happening, and prooves that it is good. So, at -1.5dB only one additional bit is needed to still play in full resolution, hence nothing is lost. And so on. Only -4.5dB prooves nothing )because 25 bits could be needed) but trust me, it is exactly right.
Why -6dB needs 1 additional bit again only ? well, because -6dB is an exact division by 2, hence 1 bit less, and *thus* 1 bit is taken from the headroom which is in the 17-24 bit range once 16 bit material is played onto a 24 bit DAC.

In the end it is all as I promise : the best digital volume you can find, because you loose exactly nothing (but -48dB max).
I hope you like it. Happy Happy

Regards,
Peter


PS: I couldn't play your .MOV file because I don't have the codecs to play it (I think QuickTime or so ... and if there's anything I avoid it is just that).
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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jarek
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 06:18:24 pm »

Dear Peter,

do you think that -6dB should be more "right" and accurate than -4.5dB (at least in theory) ?
When setting voulme to -6dB XXHighEnd does not have much to do to calculate data, whilst setting to -4.5dB calculation might be much more complicated and in fact might be more chances to lose some data ? Am I right ?
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Windows 2008 Server Std 64bit *SP2* / dual boot with Win 7 Professional 64-bit *SP1* on SATAII spinning disk, XX on Spinning Disk, music on SATAII, i5-660 (4 cores) / 16GB RAM / Engine#4 *Adaptive Mode* / Q1/2/3/4/5 = *30*/0/0/0/0 (Dev.Buffer = *4096*) / ClockRes = *0,5ms* / Straight Contiguous SFS = 120 /  *Minimize OS = Off* / *Double Octo* Arc Prediction Upsampling /-> 24/768 Phasure NOS1 async USB DAC -> ARC Ref 40 Preamp -> mainamps.
PeterSt
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2010, 07:07:30 pm »

Hi Jarek,

No, it really doesn't matter. Of course you are right (and understood Happy) that -6dB would allow for a more easy calculation, but that only counts when I would anticipate on that only (and -12, etc.). But I don't ... And in the end you won't notice it because other things take (much) more overhead. Also notice that this all happens during the preprocessing ... not during real time playback.

And no, there is not more chance for loosing data with -4.5 (etc.), because this is all "pre-determined". Also, it is not exactly -4.5, it is ~-4.5 so no data is lost. If data would be lost by means of rounding you would see it by the number of bits used (and -4.5 is a coincidental bad example because there it needs it all). You could also say it the other way around (with some trust in me) : When more steps would be possible without loosing data, I would apply them. But there aren't ...

Regards,
Peter
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

Global Moderator
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