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Author Topic: And then there was W7 SP1 (RC) ...  (Read 31562 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: December 28, 2010, 04:14:38 pm »

On an in between the lines hint from Marcin In the "W7 Pitfall" topic (I even blamed him for stirring the pot about it), I installed a fresh W7/64 and on top of it SP1 (Release Candidate). These are my findings after two days of playing Christmas Albums (not always the best) :
(let me dedicate this topic to Marcin who may be afraid a bit to post about it; we talked about it off line too)

The sound

First of all the sound is totally different compared to all what I heard before;
There's a nice dark brown bass, and it is way more profound than anything, especially compared to Vista. Ok, we knew that the bass of Vista isn't the best, but here basses have their nice own life. Also the veils of drums benefit of this, and while I earlier was happy that Vista made those veils nicely audible again (while native W7 did not do that at all), this W7 SP1 (RC) makes excel just that.

I am under the impression the sound is very clean;
Looking at this relatively from Vista, it may even be more clean, which is because this W7 is more fresh, and any "cleanness" jumps out more.

I do NOT perceive the "more dynamics" I heard from native W7 a few days back. I think this is a good thing. But, still there is a kind of "dynamics" from the more tight bass and slam. The slam seems somewhat less than from native W7 though, but to me it just sounds natural.

The highs seem clean too, but maybe with less colour than Vista. This is a difficult one, because for me it is back to the "close to the edge" thinking about the NOS1 which is "dangerous" in this aspect. Anyway, I went back from Core Appointment Scheme 1 to 3 just because of this. Scheme 1 overdoes it a litte IMO. But also to keep in mind : playing Christmas Albums from merely the 60's is a challenge within itself.

What throughout time occurred to me from Vista is a "jitter" thing. Maybe not really jitter, but a flanger and vibrato which maybe shouldn't be there. Btw, notice that XXHighEnd can have impact on this just the same, so it seems a software "control" thing. Now with W7 SP1 all sounds completely straight throughout. It (IMO) is this what makes distortion guitars sound realy good, although most people will know them as making noise only. Not true; When "processed" well, it is one of the most "airy" instruments, and the squariness of it can so nicely fill the room. Oh, for Christmass stuff this is about Lynyrd Skynyrd.

I always think that Enya is a typical test for a voice which can sound delicate, but which is a destroyer when things are not 100%. Well, I don't think I ever heard her so beautiful as she sounds now.

General observations

Let me tell you first that I did not do anything for tweaks. So, no "tweaks till death will follow" either. Nothing. Happy
Even in this case, I/Os are hard to find. There are some, and although they are new and right now I don't know where they are coming from, you'd almost say someone listened to us, because all of the others are not there. To me this looks a kind of strange ... as if things have been shut down for this Release Candidate.

I can't compare much with the earlier W7 situation because I changed PC in the mean time. But, I did not notice any difficulties at playing.

Generally it looks like the priorities behaviour wasn't changed compared to the native W7, but I do notice that there's a difference regarding how the screen I/O is dealt with. It is not even difficult to let the system BSOD when moving around with things a lot while playing (at real time priority).

What sure *is* new, is that the sound may stop for a few seconds. This feels like "uh-oh, something is wrong or off a bit, let's recalibrate". This may be similar to not receiving "too many buffer errors" at format changes, which I always had before, but not now ?

Lastly - and this could matter for what I perceive from SQ - I installed the OS on a spinning disk. yes
Maybe this encourages for a new "revolution", but at this time I don't think the SSD does good. It's merely theory, but if you (would be able to) read back what I wrote about this in the past, then you'd see that to me this feels like an emphazation of things going on anyway. So, if something is not right, the SSD will emphasize it. Of course this implies that if something is good it emphasizes it too, but honestly - this latter can't happen. It should be non-sense, never mind I said it myself. Merely it will impeed for a sibilance, and what I always said about (continuously ?) accessing the memory cells is something which is still in my mind, and which may spread currency draw, but first the currency draw then is not right in the first place. Just theory, but also not to forget that I like the sound very much, plus it is completely different. That SP1 will contribute to that somewhere is without doubt, but that the OS not being on the SSD just *will* add to it, if I must believe myself at perceiving the differences in general, and of course at believing everybody for perceiving vast differences. But is it for the better ? that is what I wonder now.
Besides, my previous OS-SSD which was still in the system, turned into a zombie, and Google tells me half of the world is bothered by this, solved by new firmware which half of those people doesn't help at all. Maybe by now I'm just fed up with SSDs.
I will have one in allright, just for the Galleries and the speed of retrieving it.
Additionally I believe that the OS disk spins down, and if not today than tomorrow after finding the source of those few IOs I mentioned.

Addendum

While I wrote this originally yesterday awaitening Marcin's topic about it, I had an additional evening of listening to more normal (test) stuff. Well, let me add to the above similar to what boleary said in the other topic :
am sorta blown away by how good SP1 it sounds!
Can't wait till it's play time again ...

There is such a naturalness, and what I didn't dare say earlier in response to Mani's first listening experience with the NOS1 : I guess this brings exactly what might be lacking when listening to Vista. It can always go deeper, and it can always go "brown café" browner" (we call a "brown café a cosey bar with not too much light and damn good atmosphere and music).

So, Vista was the solution to a failing Windows 7, but Windows 7 SP1 is the solution to Vista which seems to smoothen too much. It is like all was there in W7, but with distortion. Now it is without distortion and all is the best (??).

But I also think we must be careful;
As I said earlier, to me it feels that not all is there in W7. Similarly it can't be the final Release Candidate. I won't say all is wrong, but some too obvious things are, and it may happen that the RTM version contains sh*t we don't want again. Moral :
Get it now. You will need an official W7 (and can't upgrade from another version, nor won't it install on a beta or something) and it will be active until November 2011. Of course within the hour Marcin will come up with his W2008/SP1 (RC), and depending on the result of that it may be a more tough (and $$) job to get. So let's awaiten that too (I too can install it, but I don't want to loose any second on installing OSes at this time, and rather listen to these great sounds). Anyway, it should give you a more or less guaranteed good sound for the (almost) next year, and not to forget : I applied zero tweaks (and use a spinning disk for the OS, but which *only* contains the OS, and nothing else).

Maybe I come back on it all, but I don't think so. It's just too good ...

That's all for now ! - and thank you Marcin.
Peter

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W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Marcin_gps
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 07:29:19 pm »

For me it's just less jittery and makes sound more enjoyable due to lack of sharp edges, which, I believe, nobody likes. Listening to anything else is very frustrating for me at the moment.

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boleary
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 09:16:32 pm »

What's surprising is that its so good "out of the box" (no tweaks, internet running with all the antivirus, etc); it beats my somewhat tweaked vista set up.
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 11:05:21 pm »

Great finding Marcin, good

I'am still on w7 (mostly), will try update current os with RC1 SP1

Otherwise i will do a clean install on seperate spinning disc

This must be good, to be honest I currently dont like vista or w7 (both have their own problems and likings)

So my hopes are very high now, yes yes


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(Sept 30, 2010)                                                
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 11:16:21 pm »

Peter or Marcin,

Did you tried special mode (ultra low latency)
on (less good) bad recordings ?
\
\
Roy
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(Sept 30, 2010)                                                
W7 Ultimate x64 Tweaked/60 GB SSD OCZ Vertex (1.50)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-EXTREME/Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz/OZC Reaper 2x2GB/
Esi Juli@ soundcard (KS)(x2v-v0_978)(Tweaked Coaxial)/Nvidea Geforce 9800 GTX+/750 Watt Zalman ZM-750-HP/100 MB Fiber-Optical Internet/
(XXHighEnd 0.9z-2)
#4Engine, Special Mode, 48 samples, SFS 12MB, DAP, Scheme=3, Q1=1, Q2/Q3/Q4/Q5=30,30,0,0, PlayerPrio=Low, ThreadPrio=Realtime
x-Allow Format Change, x-Stop Services, x-Copy to XX-drive by Standard, x-Start Engine3 During Conversion
PeterSt
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 11:31:18 pm »

Played the whole evening with it and had no reason so far to move back to Adaptive Mode.
... for the first time.

Played Ambient as well as a few other genres. All at 64 samples of internal latency (512 device's) and heard no single click or tick.

But here too ... tempt the system with e.g. converting a bunch of tracks during playback and NO click or anything at all, but sound will stop at some stage and won't come back.

I still have the feeling that someone has been listening to "us" ...

whistle
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 11:55:49 pm »

I hope you  believe me now and I'll write this one more time - SP1 is just the beginning and I'd say that it gives about 50% of overall SQ possible. (100% is my reference with everything tuned, re-checked on 2 PCs). I guess it's hard to believe, but I'm very confident that's the case Happy

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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 11:58:35 pm »

Played the whole evening with it and had no reason so far to move back to Adaptive Mode.
... for the first time.

Thats what i like to hear....
 Happy

PS: Keep stiring the pot marcin, haha
 grazy
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(Sept 30, 2010)                                                
W7 Ultimate x64 Tweaked/60 GB SSD OCZ Vertex (1.50)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-EXTREME/Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz/OZC Reaper 2x2GB/
Esi Juli@ soundcard (KS)(x2v-v0_978)(Tweaked Coaxial)/Nvidea Geforce 9800 GTX+/750 Watt Zalman ZM-750-HP/100 MB Fiber-Optical Internet/
(XXHighEnd 0.9z-2)
#4Engine, Special Mode, 48 samples, SFS 12MB, DAP, Scheme=3, Q1=1, Q2/Q3/Q4/Q5=30,30,0,0, PlayerPrio=Low, ThreadPrio=Realtime
x-Allow Format Change, x-Stop Services, x-Copy to XX-drive by Standard, x-Start Engine3 During Conversion
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 12:15:50 am »

Quote
I guess it's hard to believe

Mwah, the only thing hard to believe is that you know what 100% is.
Or will be.

Was ?

Happy
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2010, 12:53:51 am »

Let us hope official SP1 will bring even better SQ. The improvements is promising to be comparable to generic cd transport. I must say SP1 RC sounds pretty damn close to highly optimized Linux platform (too bad decent cards are all for Win/Mac and no love for Linux but Async USB).

I think it's hardware issue that caused SQ being inferior to hiend CD transport making it sounds lifeless and not as involving as I can hear from today's standards of hiend CD transport and Vinyl.

P.S. I'm not suggesting that music server will sound inferior to decent CD transport in every system. It's only what I perceive in my system and what I have heard so far.
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 01:22:17 am »

My headphones 'disappeared' on my head, sounds coming from all directions with great depth. There is nothing a bit wrong or 'kind of wrong' in the sound. (Beyerdynamic T1 /w RSA Apache + RME-AES32 and dCS Elgar Plus) I never thought that dCS could sound so musical and silky smooth. Remember my post from 2 months - I couldn't stand its dry, mechanical manner.

Windows X, one more time, refer to my post and ask yourself if you have everything totally under control...


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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 02:10:35 am »

I have everything except IRQ affinity applied and a lot of other things besides what you posted improving greater than IRQ but gap is way to wide that IRQ alone can fill that up.

Not that I didn't try IRQ but my main system has single core while subsystems have dual and quad core to give it a try. Improvements from IRQ isn't as effective as other tweaks I told you though (depends on OS configuration too).

I did PM you it was dramatic improvements and yeah I'm IT geek tech so it'd be obvious that I tried this in my workstation platform as soon as it's released. But it's not enough to pull "life" out of music. I'll try and see if better hardware mods can help it. My last resort is getting Mykerinos AES/EBU with separating power supply to 3 units for board/hdd, audio and RAM/clock with all caps/diode/etc. replaced to premium grade and CNC aluminium casing with resonance free vibration control design. Hope I don't have to go that far. It would cost me $20k just to make it and little more I can get Esoteric P3/D3/G0rb lol.

I didn't meant to say music server can't sound good. It sounds really good. But Esoteric P-05 sounds way too good for its price and P-03 and P-01 take big step each so it's pretty much impossible for music server to beat any of them right now.....not even with $20k DIY music server from techinical view from specifications and parts.

However, in real listening, some $100-300 sound card with digital output can out-class $10-20k CD Player for some people too. So just stick with what you like. I'm sticking with my music server over P-05 though because it's still sound that I can live with.
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 08:42:36 am »

It's impossible to squeeze good SQ with a single core IMHO and IRQ affinity settings are crucial, very easy to overdo and ruin everything so it needs many hours of dull A/B testing, but it's worth.

Cheers,
Marcin
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 08:55:02 am »

Marcin, I tried IRQ with all possible good configuration in multi-core setup with decent PSU and it's no where near CD transport. Try to forget all this and ask yourself if IRQ alone can make Weiss INT202 interface sound as good as RME HDSP-32 with all other tweaks applied except IRQ.

As you can see, IRQ isn't even as effective as SP1 RC upgrade.
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 11:48:30 am »

As you can see, IRQ isn't even as effective as SP1 RC upgrade.
Well IRQ is just a part of it!
Marcin this is Release Candidate wich mean the final will be more(or less Happy ) stable but nothing more as architecture!
off: guys today I woke up with one idia: we need motherboard with I2S output! I need it ahaha and good drivers(no not good exeptional) for it than we can talk about OS's and IRQ.
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