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Author Topic: Recording engineers don't get it  (Read 6748 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: August 27, 2013, 10:50:03 am »

Hey all,

This is a sort of "reporting" from what I learned last California Audio Show, partly due to Phasure organizing a few of the seminars/sessions there.

This is not to bash on anything or anyone, but it sure is about venting mere disappointment;
I won't mention any names of persons or companies, although some digging may reveal who or what I am talking about. It is about names of fame for 100% sure and actually I should not say a thing and respect what was said or what I saw and heard.
But I won't. swoon



More or less driven by the audience almost all of the sessions landed on "hires" and how to get it to the homes, how to play it best and how to not confuse us consumers with undecided formats and whatever which makes me yawn soon. I saw no depth in anything which was more encouraged for by the ever lasting answers to questions which questions IMO should not have been asked in the first place. Anyway, the questions were asked by persons/reviewers who deemed it necessary to ask the same or similar question at each session and which to me (read : us all here) are from ancient history. I guess this happens when people don't join audio forums but instead are in their listening chair always, possibly reading audio magazines. I am not sure.

While the above is not to be blamed on those persons of course, I'd say that the panel members sort of are. So, those names of fame. Actually it is so that I could not imagine that no more depth was available in panel members and that it all merely was about going along with the stream of the audience. Possibly a bit of the American way ?
But what to do with it.

I can not give the examples but I'd hope that someone who was there right away agrees with me, without examples. Anyway, if I was to derive the future of good audio recording (or reproduction) I sure was left empty handed. And completely disappointed.

The above is about the theory. Therefore it was great for me that there was also practice in order - recording sessions which could be joined. Recording sessions which far away were supported by one of those sessions as well. Mutual proof of what I just said above;

First off - and you will not be able to imagine it - the sound of the 100% live played recording session sounded as the most poor "recording" I own. Let's keep in mind : the recording company is of fame just the same. So, reading forums or reports otherwise are huray this and yahoo that, but the live sound already was total sh*t to me. First of all, all was killed to dead by piles of bass traps which cost a car in total, and something like a piano (wing) sounded like blanketed but then 10 fold. It hurt my brains because I wanted to squeeze out some highs which just were not there. Remember, just played live in the room.
Then singing started. Oh boy oh boy, I now wonder what the heck I am doing to get those S-es right from my speakers. Well, I *have* them right, but these ? it again sounded like the worse recording or "digital" or whatever to name it. Horrible. Maybe someone thought that all those bass traps would help for that, but they did not. Maybe, just maybe the positioning of piano and singer should not have been in a corner ...

But it gets worse;
Maybe people recall my "report" about some introduction of DSD playback through Pure Music and dCS here in Holland. The host was former Turtle Records including there still alive recording engineer and again all sounded total sh*t. But, talking about that with the recording engineer ended in a fight because it is as it is and it can't get better. And then to think that I regard Turtle Records the best out there. Sadly that is only so in our homes, and apparently not in the recording studio. Here, at CAS, it was the same;

All together I had been talking to the recording engineer for hours and there I learned the theories. DSD theories in particular and for sure not always for the better. But, of course the best is made out of it, and all the reasoning came across as correct. Still the same guy literally told me "that is her voice with those S-es". Aha. So I told him that at least now he could use his De-Esser.
Which he can't on his Sonoma, unless he goes to PCM first. Just saying ... (hint-hint).

Then I talked in person to possibly the greatest name, and witnessed by one guy from the audience I was told that no way any "Arc Prediction" could be without ringing *and* show no aliasing. Math would proove that according to him. Ok, so I don't know sh*t and I didn't care. But I do care a bit about the (again) closed minded response which no way will bring any of us any further in this world. And mind you, this is where the recordings are being made and I guess they will be stuck forever.

Might anyone involved read this, so be it. Maybe it is not 100% justified that tiny me expresses about this like how I just did, but I guess that at least a little counterweight is needed for the great guys. I am just vastly disappointed.

I have to add :
I am explicitly not talking about the session with the Aurality guys and Jon Reichbach (and me myself); I think that was great and had the depth needed. Maybe this was beyond the audience here and there - maybe I encouraged for that myself, but to me this is always better than keeping up appearances which even are of the wrong kind.

If anyone (involved) likes to respond, please go ahead. I will stand for what I just said. And stand corrected when needed.

Peter





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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 03:30:48 pm »

Peter, just for my understanding, you're talking about the 'RECORDING & MASTERING – The Making of a Great Hi-Rez Recording' session, right? (I thought you weren't interested in attending this session...)

OK, you didn't want to mention names, but the following people were due to attend: Jack Kenny, Sean Martin, Jeffrey Norman, John Nowland, Jon Reichbach, Michael Romanowski and Paul Stubblebine. Was the 'Prof' there also by any chance?

Your post is really saddening. If the guys who make the recordings can't hear how bad the 'live' event sounds, what chance is there they can produce good-sounding recordings from it? Pretty much zilch, right? Really saddening. Thanks for sharing all the same.

OT. The more I get involved in my vinyl digitization project, there more I think we've taken some massive backwards steps in home audio. A lot of the LPs I'm using are Classical/Opera from the late 50s and early 60s. Take away the inevitable surface noise, clicks and pops, and most of them sound really incredible. I mean, the singers are standing there in front of you. How do we get back to this level of recording mastery or has it been lost forever?

It just goes to show what you've been saying for years - the whole 'hi-rez' discussion/debate is totally moot - 16/44.1 is already too good for most of the cr*p that's churned out these days. (Incidentally, 16/44.1 is not good enough to capture the true essence of my LPs - I have to go to 24/192 to get that with my ADC.)

Mani.
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PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 05:14:10 pm »

Mani, I am talking about all the sessions, except "Computer Audio". There was even one additional session, not announced.

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 05:49:22 pm »

Hi Mani, that's the VMWare of music production - the music environment is simulated or created in the studios. Sometimes that works beautifully, but too often not. I think that the best records are created if a modest environment is used. I do not think that the best ever components are necessary but the clever combination of them. Another point is the date of expiry for new music. That has decreased constantly in the last 40 years and the demand for high quality with it (the exception proves the rule). I read somewhere the phrase "sufficient quality". That's the matter. If there is no demand for highest quality it will be produced as needed. Can we expect conservativeness from the recording engineers under this conditions?

Georg

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