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Author Topic: Orelino / Orelo MKII Fletcher-Munson Curves  (Read 31661 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 06:56:10 pm »

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Start the film at 3.30 minutes and watch ……… .

I allowed myself to watch all of it and well, what to say.
Maybe Dr. Gauder didn'thave time enough to go into details he wanted, but this really makes no sense;

If I put a very same horn to my mouth like the top horn we use (or even the bass horn from my previous speaker) then it sounds the same like Dr. Gauder showed with his hands around his mouth. But of course nothing sounds like that in reality which is why a horn speaker is supplied with "corrections" to not let sound it like that.

His argument like "we have digital amplifiers" etc. to make clear that no high efficiency speaker is needed to today (opposed to the 1960's) is ... BS ?

Yes we need reflections (like I always say that side curtains need to be *open*) but it doesn't mean that 180 degree radiators are thus the best all the way.
So such an explanation is just 100 times too simple and only makes me think that these speakers will be 85dB sensitive and some argument had to be found.

Sorry ...
Peter
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PeterSt
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2014, 07:06:17 pm »

VJ,

Quote
Considering cymbal clashes require enormous power requirements for ultra short period of time, I think this would be the forte of high sensitivity speakers for playback at realistic levels.

I see you try your best to seek explanations for the unexpected. And I personally think you do very well on it ...

It will be too hard to dig out, but somewhere along the lines of the "NOS1 development topic" I came to the strict conclusion that no passive I/V (current to voltage) conversion could work because of a lack of current for the HIGH frequencies.
A year later I even forgot about it and retried something with passive I/V conversion, came to the same conclusion and ... only then thought I already came to that conclusion earlier on.

Although we all think that the most current is needed for the lower frequencies it really is the other way around and math easily shows it. So when I/V conversion is properly set up no less bass comes from it but way less highs yes. This is how the NOS1 ended up with active I/V conversion, no matter I held back from that for ... 2 years I think (passive is inherently better because of less components in the signal).

So your conclusion is correct that the more easy the high frequencies are rendered (higher efficiency) the less current is needed to do that; current which might not be available (think required speed (rise time)) - in any amplifier.

Maybe it is not known much, but the tweeter in the Orelo MKII is controlled by its own amplifier.

Peter

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vrao
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2014, 08:05:28 pm »


Adding to Peters explanation ...
I've had low sensitivity speakers, and I know their performance level.
This is for the fellow readers, amp requirements

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

One can spend an hour with different scenarios. Let's say 85dB speakers listening 3m away with 85dB listening level with 3dB headroom, 18W ... No biggie right, now let put cymbals with dynamic range to 115-120dB .... Then it's possibility is uncertain, until unless you have your own power generator. (Thanks to Peter, he alerted to me on this a year ago)

A particular amps power rating from my understanding is for a single note, and it will drop for complex passages. Power supply is a big limiting factor for most amps. Class D can do a better job on this with the switchmode supply, but they themselves are limited by the technology.

 Peter, I think you are spot on ... multi-amping is mandatory for realistic audio playback.

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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2014, 08:18:43 pm »

Because my previous post simplified things to some extend, notice the secondary effect :
When tweeter and mid are controlled by the same amplifier, the life is sucked out of the mid and the tweeter "does" that (the real high frequencies do).

At least that was one of the ideas behind the fourth amplifier in there.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 08:05:26 am by PeterSt » Logged

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For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2014, 02:42:55 am »


 this probably would relate to the high sensitivity.

Start the film at 3.30 minutes and watch ……… .


I have heard these speakers and must say they are probably ‘best in class’.
What particularly struck me was the level of detail they produce. If you like the sound of diamond tweeters then you will probably love these with their diamond mid-range.

I have also heard the Orelo however, MKI mind you, and although I think the RC 11 is a fantastic speaker, I personally prefer the Orelo’s.

Why? Well because if you would do a blind test between live music and both speakers I’m sure you’d pick the Orelo as the one that comes closest to reproducing the live event, and in the end that’s what it is all about for me.

Although I couldn’t identify anything particular wrong with the RC 11, somehow they didn’t quite sound natural to me. When listening to live music you wouldn’t say ‘Wow, what a great level of detail!', it would just be there. With the RC11 it seems perhaps over-accentuated (like looking through binoculars), and with long listening sessions this can become fatiguing.

What I love about the Orelo/NOS1 system is its neutrality, transparency and finesse, a three dimensional soundstage, detailed accuracy, and speed & dynamics, but always in a very natural and musical way.

Obviously both speakers are great and I would be very happy to live with either one of them. At this level it also becomes a matter of taste, but for now I can’t wait to hear the Orelo MKII/NOS1a  Happy

Diede 
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2014, 04:42:42 am »

Follow up on the the link to the video, and Peter's comment:

First: ....... I was warned about the horn shout, in speakers, and told to avoid,.... this was prior to even purchasing my second speakers (yeons ago), and that was forever engraved in my brain, and the first thing I did when these speakers came over, was... And every day it's still in the back of my mind, in every tune trying to point the issue out, not only that, the concentric horn, I though I could point out a design issue ... Alas it's not so at this "point" of time ... Seamless, well kudos to Peter/Bert.

I have/had speakers which are wide dispersion .... Without getting into the technicality (implied by this post) 360deg dispersion is a is a big issue. The sound from 0° to approximately 45° cancel each other out, on my prior speakers there was a huge drop from 5000 to 20,000Hz to approximately 20 dB. Room becomes increasingly important. The design which Peter/Bert took actually is quite brilliant, the horn is wide dispersion, but not too wide, the bass is OB, but with a horn dispersion.

Perhaps line arrays speakers may be another answer, with 180 or 120 deg cancellations can be overwhelmed by the forward wave. This would be a design challenge. All the line arrays I've heard have issues with imaging.

One not does need ambient information with exactly 180 deg as the guy in the vid mention, my experience, this was recently re-evaluated with the Oreleo MK-II, and that is not a simple statement coming from me. This "idea" needs to be reevaluated.

Secondly if we uses the amp cal from my prior link, we would see that increasing the power from 200 to 300w or to even 400w is actually irrelevant, even from 100W.

Total BS ...

 unhappy
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2014, 09:11:28 am »


At least that was one of the ideas behind the fourth amplifier in there.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2910.0

Now it dawns to me that this are full ACTIVE  speakers, and that tells a lot and should be more highlighted. This is a different world in sound reproduction.

I heard in Berlin at Max Schlundt last year the Dutch speakers Grimm LS1, an active speaker too, and the SQ was totally different to my system and the sound was ......
incredible.
A full 3D image with an amazing resolution. I sat there with an "open mouth" and my question was, how is this possible.

The active driven speakers seems to be a superior design with an amazing result.

We do not see many reviews in the HiFi press about active speakers, but when, the critics are overwhelming positive.

Joachim




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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2014, 09:34:20 am »

Quote
Now it dawns to me that this are full ACTIVE  speakers, and that tells a lot and should be more highlighted.

True Joachim. But this is a bit of my fault;
I had prepared another topic about the amplification but never got round to that because of waiting for better pictures than the ones I took (could take at the time). I now have these pictures (from a full production version) already for a couple of weeks but never had the time ...

Will look into that now !
sorry
Peter
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2014, 11:54:13 am »

Quote
Will look into that now !

Ok, here : Active Speakers - Why ?
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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