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Author Topic: RAM-OS & Volume  (Read 5205 times)
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Scroobius
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« on: January 30, 2016, 01:31:53 pm »


Interesting that Mani and others are playing at higher volumes and I fully understand why. I also find that high volumes sound great and particularly with dance tracks, rock, guitar etc.

BUT

What I find with RAM-OS now is that playing classical and particularly chamber music, jazz etc. I do the opposite. Playing at a slightly lower volume reveals real subtlety in levels of detail and sound staging. The volume now acts as a Vernier to get the sound picture just right. That has never happened before.

Paul
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 10:09:25 am »

Hi Paul,

I thought I'd pay attention to this myself, because maybe I'm a loner in never observing such things. But even after these days since your post, I forgot to do it.

I think I work differently;

I can't be sure, but I feel that I like to listen to reality levels. Otherwise things just don't fit. So although I play fairly loud, generally (think 90dBSPL), I don't play loud for it being loud. Not with rock and even not with "dance". Actually it is so that usually I am highly disturbed by too loud because one can't talk anymore.

I can tell you that it happened two times that I was forced to listen to very loud, in my own listening room. One time was the beautiful guy Bert brought along who wanted to listen to classical at 110dBSPL levels (I'm not kidding you) and the other time was our friend Nick who wanted listen to IIRC Griffin at those levels.
At such a time I think that people must have a kind of brain damage to want that in the first place, or otherwise they get braindamage from it.

If anything, it goes the other way around over here;
Take a guy like Jeffrey Garland. Not really my style because to neat and beautiful, but listenable anyway because of the higher quality of the recordings (in my view). Along with that comes the better cymbal. Now :

What starts to be problematic (and a couple of years ago I anncouned it to be there one day) is that when we play at reality levels, which for such (say folk-rock) music could be the normal acoustical levels like a piano which plays at 90dBSPL, then the cymbal is 110dBSPL when hit hard(er). This is NOT nice, as is it not nice to be in the room when our Paul is practicing his drumming. So no matter the 110dB is reality levels for a cymbal, it is too loud. This means that the piano has to play softer first, so the cymbal becomes acceptable.
And this is not a very good thing (for progress) ...

Quote
What I find with RAM-OS now is that playing classical and particularly chamber music, jazz etc. I do the opposite.

You better find out the why instead of making up something like better subtlety, which is a drag reason if you ask me. If those guys play life in front of you, you're not going to ask whether they can play softer, so the subtlety can be heard better. Of course, when Griffin kneels in front of you with 110dB then I would ask that too. But ...
So, funny, but last night I quit a Jazz album because I thought it was too dynamical for my "loudness". Well, maybe not for me, but for the family. So you know, those guys with brushes, wheeling and dealing along, you adjusting the volume to that, while a real stick is sneaked in and the snare is hit hard. Putting the volume down does NOT work.

I started to obtain all the Charly Antolini's because it works so really well now (as I said elsewhere, I don't nee my own drumming recording any more to listen to real drums), but with that too, in the second album I threw it out because things go too loud (read : unexpectedly and too dynamically - just like in real life).

This looks like complaining, but it surely is not. I more often throw out albums for many reaons. I now just found another reason (for other albums). Anyway, I think that for me too the volume went down a tad but despite my desription above, I think it can be related to me never ever explicity listening; really never. So for me it is 100% of times background music, never mind that plays at ~90dBSPL to begin with. Already the realism of a snare drum is diturbing somewhat (for now it keeps on attracting my attention), let alone that the recording is really the better one, combined with the drummer playing dynamically (mind you, a random rocker does NOT).

I hope this makes sense. But I have something like :
Welcome to the new world.

Peter


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Scroobius
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 12:37:07 pm »

Quote
......... but I feel that I like to listen to reality levels. Otherwise things just don't fit. So although I play fairly loud, generally (think 90dBSPL),

I absolutely agree and much of what I listen to is at high level (when I am allowed to  Wink ). And sometimes I play at really stupid high levels. That will invariably be with dance or maybe rock/guitar and definitely thrash and metal. The sound of drums and cymbals at high level is really something. You and
Quote
the beautiful guy Bert
ha ha both know how loud because or recent "events".

But recently I have been playing a lot of string quartets and chamber music. Mainly because with RAM-OS I just cannot stop listening, the sound quality is just soooooo good I cannot help myself  Happy.

The word "subtle" is not a very precise word to use so I had another listen yesterday to Beethoven string qts and the amount of really low level information is just astonishing. Also there is much more "ambient" information in as much as the sound now is detached from the speakers in a way it was not before RAM-OS. Really I can hear instruments in space behind the speakers now in 3D. I agree that music is more realistic at higher levels because real live music is at high levels but for sure the really delicate low level information (which is more noticeable with classical good recordings) starts to disappear as I increase volume and the sound collapses into the flat plane between the speakers (i.e. the 3D effect is reduced with higher volume).

So maybe there is something wrong with my system? or maybe even my ears!!  but I was wondering if it is feedback through NOS1a as the volume increases that could be destroying some of that low level information.

Anyway that is what I think I am hearing. Golden ears Mani will be here in a couple of week it will be interesting to get his take on it.

Paul
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 02:09:00 pm »

Paul,

I think it is quite easy to make a mush of things when too many reflections are in order. I must say that I never noticed such a thing in my room, but possibly it is too large to let that happen ?
Maybe I am wrong, but I'd say that the softer you play the more direct sounds (from the speaker) you will hear as the only sounds. So, reflections are too soft to be noticeable - at some low level of course. And then the low level needs to be combined with those low (subtle) sounds. Thus, in the end it should be so that the louder music elements do not reflect overly, so when that is under control the subtle sounds are in balance with it ?

blahblah - sorry to be vague (not really in shape at this moment)
Peter
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 07:35:01 pm »

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I think it is quite easy to make a mush of things when too many reflections are in order

I'll buy that it sounds feasible to me. Anyway if this, by some stretch of the imagination, was a "problem" (which it isn't) wow what a problem to have. I love it - it sounds absolutely amazing.

Paul
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 08:49:05 am »

Because it is warmer again (crazy above 10C almost always) we have the curtains open lately. This is even better again (it always was, but alas). Anyway, I am known for liking reflections, as long as it's "organised" to some extent. It just makes all more defined.
(for others, notice that I (Paul too) use horn speakers, which are quite directional, obiously).

Peter
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 09:10:37 am »

Peter,

You nailed it ! My room is not "absorbent" and I also feel that things are more defined that way...

I never really thought things that way, but you spoke my mind.

Alain

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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 05:31:13 pm »

Quote
Anyway, I am known for liking reflections,

I always like "reflective". The room here is very reflective - long walls with no absorbent materials. The only curtains are behind the listening position 10 meters away from the speakers. But I think that the place NOT to have reflective is between and close to the speakers. i.e. speakers up against a wall with say a glass patio door pretty much on the plane of the speakers never worked here (but that was before directional horns it has to be said). The  speakers here are effectively 33% into the room with 5 meters behind the speakers into a conservatory. Whilst there are some big room effects (i.e. big bass reinforcements especially in the conservatory behind the speakers) it all comes together in the listening position. Which is very lucky as it was not planned that way.



Paul

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