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Author Topic: Balanced Power - A lesson re-learnt  (Read 5921 times)
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Scroobius
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« on: May 22, 2016, 09:54:52 pm »

A few months ago I removed the 1:1 mains balanced power supply transformer that sits between my hifi system and the mains supply. Why did I do this? well I remember Peter and Bert saying at some time in the dim and distant past that such transformers MAY reduce transient response. After all transformers with big winding's and the sheer physical size of them will for sure introduce inductance and also of course capacitance. Bad things for sure in a system this fast and responsive.

On removing the transformer I cannot honestly say that I noticed any real difference. That was a good enough reason to leave it out after all why have something installed that makes no difference?

The only problem was that during the day when lights were switched on and off and when motors and other electrical devices switched on or off the speakers clicked and popped. Not that loud and not a big problem really as they did not interrupt music listening. Anyway today I put the transformer back in line for the sole reason of getting rid of the occasional clicks and pops.

What is a surprise is just how good my system sounds again. The sound is just so silky smooth again - something that I did not appreciate was missing until today. So is this silky smooth at the expense of transients? absolutely not there are still great transients but without a layer of hash - almost at a sub conscious level. All I know is that I just do not want to turn the music off again.

Maybe balanced power is as fundamental as I thought it was originally when I first installed it - I just lost my way for a few months and now I can see the light again - anyway that is the way my ears are hearing it now.

And that is not all there is another change to be made this week when I start lifting floor boards to make further fundamental changes!!! watch this space!!

Cheers

Paul



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W10-14393.0 - RAM Disc XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2040v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores)* @~720MHz, 32GB, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *3.0*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0/ Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Not the best (OS from RAM issue) / Time Stability = Off (OS from RAM issue) / Custom Filter low(12220) 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 70cm -> Phisolator -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink -> Orelino MkII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 01:37:38 am »

Paul,

I've been thinking about getting one of the Goertz Audio balanced transformers in the hope of eliminating some DC offset in the power that sometimes causes my amp transformers to hum slightly.

Any thoughts on the Goertz Audio product?  Can balanced power eliminate DC offset or am I completely off-track here?

Ramesh
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XXHE version 2.09.
Music Server: XXHE PC, RDC to Audio PC
XXHE settings: Q1 30x40, Q3/4/5 1/1/1, SFS 20.0 (Max 120), Clock Res 15ms, Driver Buffer 4ms
Audio PC -> Lush USB cable -> NOS1(a,75B, G3) -> Blaxius cables (BNC) -> Orelo Mk II active speakers
PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2016, 05:52:52 am »

Ramesh,

In my thinking, the DC Offset will be caused by the consumers itself - thus your own household apparatus and stereo. I am not sure whether that can be solved, although you can block the DC at the devices with humming transformer.
Real remedy should be a better tranformer ?

I don't know all about this, but I do know that I could always solve it with a better transformer. Plus there seems to be a limit on transformers to be hum free. Think like : when you have a transformer which is "larger" than 225VA it is prone to hum.
I once sorted out the topology of transformers (and what can hum (vibrate) and why) and it is not even easy matter.

To answer your question :
Yes, such a balanced transformer helps initially, but behind it you will "create" the same again. So it depends on whether the offset was already there in front of (the place of) that transformer.

Any better idea for mine !

Peter
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 06:11:41 am »

Hi Paul,

Thank you for sharing.
One remark which I think is unrelated, but related to the story itself anyway :

If you hear those clicks and pops from switching on/off consumers, you should have something else wrong. But hard to say where this can be. One source of that I have for you : the stereo itself. For example, detach a ground from an interlink and there you'll have it. Maybe not by guarantee, but by the experience I have myself with it (all coincidental). So :
In some earlier days of my music playback I worked a lot with detouring etc. grounds and I took the clicks for granted. Or I left off the light dimmers and such. Well, you know.
In my current system, at one day, I suddenly suffered from the same; This goes so unnoticed (so to speak) that you take it for granted (again). It sort of belongs to the job (never mind that it was away for 10 years). But this time I found a bad soldering in a connection ...

Very similar happens with poor solderings in again interlinks. Why interlinks ? because we tend to solder on them Wink). So no matter how hard you try, things start to buzz and hum when not layed out carefully (like routing them over a PC is not careful).
If I now ask Ciska to solder an interlink, the problems suddenly stay away and the interlinks are allowed to route through everything. swoon
Side note : remember those 3 organs I have ? one of them I built myself. A year of soldering ... But including my further soldering experiences, apparently not enough to do it really well. Ciska is just better at it ...

Of course we (you and me) are quite challenging with our 118dB sensitivity horns always at full gain. But, good thing, because at least we can hear it when something is wrong (to some degree).
Anyway moral : if I were you I'd find the source of the clicks and when solved go back to the trafo setup.

Regards,
Peter
Logged

For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Scroobius
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2016, 08:08:18 am »

Peter

Quote
Of course we (you and me) are quite challenging with our 118dB sensitivity horns always at full gain. But, good thing, because at least we can hear it when something is wrong (to some degree).
Anyway moral : if I were you I'd find the source of the clicks and when solved go back to the trafo setup.

Good point - interesting because I don't remember having "clicks and pops" in the original set-up (before Orelino) but there again the previous speakers were only 90dB sensitivity. There is actually now very little that I have soldered in the signal path - interlinks are not soldered (home made Blaxius). Actually I was planning to replace all the connectors anyway because I am not happy with my first attempt and recently when I made up a short temporary interconnect I made a much better job of it. So I shall re-make the i/c's and see what happens.

Watch this space.

Ramesh - not sure about DC offset although I have read about it can be a problem. The GC amp that I built and used to run before the Orelino's is now installed in my study system, it has two big trafo's and hums like mad when the supply voltage is slightly depressed due to load (something kicks in locally around 9a.m. every morning). Maybe that is DC offset but I just don't know. The trafo's in the Orelino's don't hum much at all and it seems that all the efforts Bert took to reduce hum (much silicon involved with that) works. Anyway the reason I originally installed a balanced supply transformer was to reduce the amount of hash that is dumped onto the earth rail so providing a much cleaner PE. The trafo I have was ordered from a specialist transformer supplier I can provide details if you are interested or maybe wait until I find out if I can sort the problem with re-built interlinks?

Cheers

Paul
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W10-14393.0 - RAM Disc XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2040v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores)* @~720MHz, 32GB, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *3.0*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0/ Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Not the best (OS from RAM issue) / Time Stability = Off (OS from RAM issue) / Custom Filter low(12220) 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 70cm -> Phisolator -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink -> Orelino MkII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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