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Author Topic: XX volume control - something weird going on  (Read 5942 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 03:57:56 pm »

Mani, that could be a good idea. But assumed I hear the same as you do (which will just be the case) I next must "see" something anyway. The other way around (sort of) : If I see the test signal but don't see anything strange, I'm curious what you actually perceive from it (music, not the test signal).
So I guess both are as useful.

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Peter
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 10:24:23 am »

Here they are...

The recording chain is:

Mach II -> NOS1a -> Prism ADC -> Tascam spdif input

1. Drum kit (XX at 0dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfMVQyYjg2Tkp2NEE

2. Drum kit (XX at -1.5dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfajJkN2N0SWl6Uk0

3. -14dB 1kHz sine wave (XX at 0dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfREwwS0pwMkd2Ujg

4. -14kHz sine wave (XX at -1.5dB)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfWURHS0N4RHg1N2c

I used 'my own' sine wave for the last two (ripped from a test CD) because it was already at -14dB and meant I didn't need to go through the preamp to attenuate further. But if these 2 files are not good enough for you, then I will redo them with the 1kHz file you linked to, but won't be able to sort the ICs from the preamp to the ADC until this evening.

Listening to files #1 and #2 here, the effect I described at the beginning of this thread is very clear to hear.

Mani.
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 10:37:08 am »

Haha...

I can play tracks #1 and #2 at any XX volume settings (track #1 played back 1.5dB lower than track #2) and the difference in sound is obvious. BUT... when I play back at -1.5dB and 0dB respectively, they sound identical!

Mani.
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2016, 10:43:08 am »

Mani,

I can't use your test signal. Only my own. Sorry.

Peter
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 12:09:23 pm »

No problem Peter, I'll redo it, but it'll have to wait until this evening because I need to sort some extra balanced ICs out from the preamp to the ADC.

Mani.
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2016, 12:15:34 pm »

I thought it might be useful to redo the files with an all-digital recording chain: Mach II -> AR-T Legato USB-to-spdif -> Tascam spdif input

Here they are...

1. Drum kit (XX at 0dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfWnF3QkFWRVpkd3M

2. Drum kit (XX at -1.5dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfLUw3VEhGUTc1enM

(On this track, you may notice that the L/R channels are reversed for the first second or so - you're not going mad, it's just a bug in the Tascam's 'auto record start' function.)

3. -14dB 1kHz sine wave (XX at 0dB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfVUt6NE4xZ0t5N2c

4. -14kHz sine wave (XX at -1.5dB)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PU5LO5jVjfaFljcGJCRTBfdUk

(Again, I'm using 'my own' sine wave for the last two.)

Mani.
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2016, 12:45:11 pm »

I'm hearing the effect on these digital recordings too. So, it has nothing to do with being in the DAC's sweet spot.

Mani.
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2016, 01:37:26 pm »

What is the upsampling rate you use for the AR-T ?
IsNOS1 should be inactive, but please confirm whether you really had it inactive during the recording (and the audible judgement).
Filter settings ?

These questions are only for me setting the exact same when I'm diving into the code to look for the unknown.

I think that the testsignal recording (of my own file) will be useless because if the origine is in XXHighEnd, it can only be that I see the same as always. Am I right ? So maybe don't put too much effort in getting the interlinks etc. Maybe later.

What I do wonder is whether the Peak Extension implies the same effect. I am not sure yet why I ask, but I recall some combination / oddity with something like the "base" volume of "no attenuation" and Peak Extension, me never being able to find that culprit and made a work around instead. So possibly all is related to this work around. *If* I am able to find back this particular piece of code ...

Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2016, 02:05:59 pm »

What is the upsampling rate you use for the AR-T ?
IsNOS1 should be inactive, but please confirm whether you really had it inactive during the recording (and the audible judgement).
Filter settings ?

With the AR-T I had the upsampling slider set to '1', 'Is NOS1' = inactive, and no filtering (both Custom and AP off).

What's interesting for me is whether 0dB actually sounds better/more accurate than any >0dB attenuation. Your large SFS and other Q settings seem to work well for >0dB attenuation, but not for 0dB - they make it sound too 'thick'.

Mani.
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 12:07:17 pm »

OK, I'll just assume that no-one else is hearing what I'm hearing... unhappy

Mani.
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 01:08:03 pm »

Hi Mani,

I once communicated with Peter (maybe last year or somewhere in the beginning of this year - can't recall accurately) about the XXHighEnd digital volume. I use a preamp because I find the double output practical to feed 2 active subwoofers.

At the time and before I got my NOS1, I was not using the digital volume, so it was always at 0db. After some time (it took me time to realize this) I felt that sometimes the sound was harsh and it was without a doubt due to the level of compression that many of my CDs had.

So I experienced different levels that would be convenient to overcome this situation. I started using -6db, then -12db. At some point I felt that the music was "leaner" than usual and communicated with Peter by PM to ask if there were recommendations about this. Peter told me about a "sweet spot" that could maybe help. I finally managed for -18db since -21 was a little too low.

From time to time I was coming back to -3 or -6db because I felt that the music was fuller. In all honesty I wondered if I was imagining things. I am still unsure nowadays.

The reason why I hesitated to chime in was because I am not sensitive to many aspects of the settings dials. I try to follow the suggested adjustments but at an early point I fail to hear differences. What is obvious to some of you is beyond my ability.

Do I still hear this "fuller" sound near 0db ? I am not sure. With the NOS1 now a NOS1a, there are differences and for the better. I could do some tests but I feel quite limited even in testing.

So the few tests I did then are beginning to "dilute" as time goes by, but at the time I really felt there were differences. Near 0db some music seemed to have more body, but I never really used a meter to adjust the volume more accurately, so I can't say if my approximate adjustments in gain were ok or not...

Regards,

Alain


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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 01:20:31 pm »

Hi Alain, thanks for sharing.

Near 0db some music seemed to have more body...

I just want to make it really clear that what I'm hearing is not a gradual build up to a fuller sound as 0dB is approached. It's a definite ON/OFF. At -1.5dB, to my ears the sound is pretty much the same as at -9dB, or -15dB, provided there is no clipping in the material. But at 0dB, it fundamentally changes.

Anyone should be able to hear this with the files I've linked to. Play the 0dB file 1.5dB lower than the -1.5dB file. The level you play back on doesn't matter, as long as it's not -1.5dB and 0dB. For example, playing back at -19.5dB and -18dB are fine. If you're hearing what I'm hearing, there will be a quite big difference in the way they sound, at yet the signal level reaching the DAC will be identical.

Mani.

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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.07 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=0 /  xQ1=1 / Q3,4,5=0 / SFS=1.00 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 1ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Arc Prediction / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2016, 03:49:36 pm »

Quote
What I do wonder is whether the Peak Extension implies the same effect.

Hi Mani,

Any news on this ?
Please keep in mind that I simply can-not test such things myself because it requires a pre-amp and I don't have that.
If you don't feel like testing it yourself, you can always just record it at -0 and -1.5dBFS output level. Then I can test it myself (I just attenuate both situations and the difference (if any) will be preserved).

Thanks,
Peter
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W10-14393.0 - September 2017 (2.08)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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manisandher
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2016, 04:03:29 pm »

Peter, I've moved all my recording equipment back into the basement and won't be able to do anything now until the end of next week at the earliest.

However, I've just taken a quick listen and it's interesting...

Peak Extend OFF:
0dB - thick, full sound
-1.5dB (onwards) - much more sparkle and life, but maybe too thin for some material

Peak Extend ON:
0dB - thick, full sound
-1.5dB (onwards) - thick, full sound (exactly the same as 0dB, but slightly quieter, obviously)

I think your thoughts about PeakExtend playing a part might be right.

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.07 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=0 /  xQ1=1 / Q3,4,5=0 / SFS=1.00 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 1ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Arc Prediction / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
PeterSt
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2016, 09:05:11 am »

Okay Mani !
I will take your observations for granted (read : no further recording necessary) which (P.E. thing) is SUPER useful. Tis really gives me something to alost physically (text)search for.

Thanks a lot,
Peter
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - September 2017 (2.08)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14/-/1/1/1/* Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.9*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filter Low 705600 / -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush USB 1m00* -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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