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Author Topic: This is true  (Read 10856 times)
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Gerner
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« on: June 08, 2007, 11:48:35 pm »

Well guys....

Bumped into a very interesting...for me at least...exeptional phenomenon during my evening session with the XX agent. (Vista, #1, 44.1K)

Was browsing through a DEMO folder of mine with extraordinary quality tracks. One is Joan Armatradings track "Willow". Maybe not so 5 * rated re. sound quality, but good enough to belong in that folder.

Now, you know what I heard for the first time ever?...No of course not.

Her voice is recorded in anti-phase compared to the band. Huhihaaa. Hallo...never ever heard that before as I didn't have the agent 007 going here ever before and hence it all seems, I was not able to detect it.

I  threw in the CD to look for the same phenomenon. No way I can determine this insidence. No way. It is just the same phase mess no matter what plays and who sings.
Have we here in front of us just something that exposes phase relations burned to the CD?
Your judgement....by trial to compare.

There are a lot of "technical mistakes" taking place in studios, even nowadays. Ooops. The record just slips out the back door into the shops not been exposed to neither ears to detect anomalities in this department, neither the the equipment automaticaly rooting mistakes out of the way it sees it.

So.... how nice to have a entrepeter of the source that can tell you such things. It is more and more obvious that along time you just have to kneel and respect it for it's monitor skills.

The XX is much closer to the true tool to dig out the info on the records than I first realised.

Gerner yes


I will likely see more to come of this kind. Why? My ears and what's left of the brain is insane responsive to phase relations and thereby I can just conclude most of my listning life has been a torture until now.


 swoon
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 09:59:07 am by Gerner » Logged

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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2007, 11:46:25 am »

Just my comments on your findings on this matter :

As you might know, apart from standing waves whatever philosophies, I try to form more "theories" from different angles, in order to be in the end  able to explain Audio.

Explain Audio ? yes, because there are, in fact, so many things that are unexplained so far, or can't be justified by scientific means.
Let's say I'm on a kind of right track already, because XXHighEnd sort of Happy does what I expected in advance, while at the same time officially it should sound like ... you know. prankster

Gerner, at this time of the evolution I can be very wrong, but I would (like to) dedicate your finding on this matter to the ability of original sounds to re-emerge in the room during playback. This, versus the matter of things not being recorded.
That I dedicate "this" to your finding, it just a hunch (but let's say for now I'm good at hunching).

Please note for those who don't know me, or generally think my writings are too long Happy that my life consists of writing maybe 10 or 20 of these pages per day, which just sets my mind, in the end having learned something. So yes, most often this is brainstorming with myself, which is just for a good cause ... for ME. Might you benefit form it too ...  thankyou

So, opposed to the standing waves principle about which I wrote rather often by now (bd-design), the phenomenon of waves recreating in mid air by means of proper playback I've written about only once maybe (bd-design again).

Gerner, I am not all that much saying that what you experienced is because of that, but merely because of it happening, you receive the opportunity where otherwise it wouldn't be possible.

I think that "music data" which was not able to get it to the recording, can just emerge again in the air where the elements of the music data are being played back. Example : supposed each individual string of a guitar were recorded by means of individual microphones, the harmonics of them playing together, would not be recorded, right ? Now think of it ... with an electrical guitar, this just would be so (individual microphones -> the element with 6 microphones).
Of course, when we listen to a live concert, we do not perceive the individual strings, because from the loudspeaker all is already merged, and what we hear would be the reality of the harmonics of the together played strings (chords).

This doesn't sound (no pun) so bad, does it ? innocent

Right.
Now especially for you Gerner, if you're not awake, you will be !

We now jump over to our Ben Harper and his Cruel World ...
I think I now just start to be able to explain what went wrong with this very good example of the instruments falling apart in the crazy dynamics Engine#3 Double version ...
And I think you can guess what's coming next ...

For the others : This track (Welcome to the Cruel World from the equally named album) is (like the other tracks) about playing the electrical guitar with chords. Engine#3/Double shows these cords in a very very interesting way as all the individual strings being very well audible, and you could say that where we audio freaks are always seeking for separation of instruments, voices and the like, Engine#3/Double shows the individual parts of the instruments. Veeeery interesting, crazily impossible, but just happening. Also, this is the version with the crazy dynamics, the SPL meter not showing the perceived SPL level, but your ears do ...

Now what I say is : with this #3 version the individual parts do not play together, and where harmonics of the treamplay don't get a chance, most probably the antiphase elements of a drum smash etc. don't get a chance either (so all is pronounced unnaturally).

What XXHighEnd does (stribes for anyway) is getting the phase of all right. This is about this -theoretically anyway- one very small point in space where all has to be right. When this one small point is expressed as, say, one cubic cm (which is even rather much), now you do the math (with speed of sound and length of waves for individual frequencies) how accurate things have to be.
Now, since #3/Double should be more accurate than #3/Normal (or #1 and #2 and #2/Double for that matter), things go over the hill. BUT :

And this is for Gerner again ... this was with the, say, MKI version of the Orphean/BD15.

We (Bert and me) already found that what can be done with software (no DSP !) can also be done with loudspeaker filters. Well, to a large extend anyway. Trust me, the differences with a filter can be day and night (and within 0.5 seconds audible -> I mean this), but only when the source is right !!!

Now things kind of backfire ...
Where #3/Double was over the hill wil the MKI, I don't think it is with the MKII. And haha, I didn't even try !!
But the fun is, I don't need to, and I think I can reason why;

Where the MKII became better in all aspects, it got rid of a, say, level of freshness at the same time. Freshness which is (and was) of a crazy high level anyway, without a flair of disturbance, but Bert as well as me do want more of it with the MKII (and Bert, I know this was only here and there in between the lines, but I think I may speak for you on this matter). I sense, I feel, I KNOW that today #3/Double will perform as intended. It now fully coorporates with the MKII filtering. It went over the hill because the MKI couldn't really cope.

And again, I am just reasoning something out, but the fun is, that I always do this in advance. So, obviously I could go and listen first before this writing, but for me it is much better if I turn out to be right; It does not give me the opportunity to talk into directions. Otoh, if it turns out I am wrong, I have to explcitly find the reaons of why.

All together, on the topic, XXHighEnd is about getting the things right, and I state that the most of this happens in mid air, and not in the speaker, in the amp or wherever we might think we can enhance the sound. BUT, all these elements can destroy !!
Isn't that the same ? well, yes, I think it is. But mind you, when the angle is "it can destroy" your tweaks will be different !

We all know about the filtering cables, and that cables might bring you less sharp highs. BS !!
BS if you understand what my objectives are : putting through the sound as unaltered as possible. THAT brings you the good sound. Uhhm ... the NATURAL sound.

If you (Gerner) are now able to hear the antiphase of a single voice in the midst of all, this is
a. because you are very adaptive to it  Happy
b. because the very accurate phase mappings.

With b. I don't mean that this individual voice is accurately reproduced, but that ALL is accurately reproduced, because of why the individual voice now can be heard properly.

For now I want to end this post with a remark of similar order, though the subject is very different;

Instruments can be played back rather separated in many systems. If all is rather okay, this just happens satisfactory. Also : I never noticed that XX would do this better in the higher regions of the frequency spectrum (for the lower regions yes, because the standing waves would mask everything otherwise). But :

What *is* very much noticable, is this :
Suppose you are not into metal or hardrock and the like; in that case you wouldn't like the screeming guitars, right ?
Well, just try them again ... What happens today with XX, is that the normally screeming mask or flair all over the total sound, has become so completely separated, that there is no such thing as a mask or flair of screeming. There is just this one area in space where the guitar plays its rough notes. Actually it is rather interesting, because the guitar can have it. It was made for it. "That" music was made for it. All fits. It's not screeming all over the sound. It's screeming a little bit by itself. Let it go ... let it flow ... Just listen to what this headbanging plectrum thrower makes of it ...  biglol
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 12:56:38 pm »

Hi there.

I am really wondering if that is all that complicated.

Best sound is IMO achieved if we are talking about a  100% jitterfree-bitperfect data stream without any manipulation, which will deliver all
sounds,spectrum and phases right. Everything else is manipulation, which leads into this or that audible direction.

You guys are aware that I rather prefer the "shortest" track philosophy. Find the shortest track from RAM2DAC. All interfaces in the stream are just introducing jitter.
If I manipulate the signal then I manipulate the basedata offline and not realtime. I know it is not always possible, but than I always ask myself "What's the lesser of two evils?" E.g. my software volumecontrol is one of these cases.

The thing what's done different today, compared to "good" old times, that we start further up the stream to avoid jitter, which introduces  different spectrum/phaseshifts to the signal. I believe that due to jitter even the original wave form and its spectrum is changed, which will end up in weired distorted sounds.
This of course will be much earlier audible in the highs. The number of samples, due to the high frequency, to cover one wavelength are just a small number.
The effective error is therefore in this particular area much more evident than in lower frequencies.
Having distortions in the bitstream will therefore heavily influence the highs, much more than the mids. That explains many of the improvements we're looking at.

I realized that just getting everything what's possible impacting the stream out of the data-stream path leads to extreme improvements.

I still think (and experienced it) that especially the latency-jitter issues described by RME, which occurs at quite some interfaces in the process chain is one of the main drivers for all the mess. The IRQ handling and the correlated timer is the 2nd main reason for the mess. Of course there are other factors like load dependent dynamic processor-clock changes, on USB I found out about dynamic bandwidth allocations and different number of data-packages per USB-package, all kind of different size ring-buffers at the the process
interfaces, even the ROM based USB drivers do impact the stream. Everything which tends to be non-linear will non-linear impact the data-stream, thus causing distortions.

To me we're talking about nothing else than a distorted bit-stream, which needs a  proper  PC environment (respectively data-chain),  to get rid of its distortions.


Cheers
\Klaus


 
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Gerner
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2007, 09:02:19 pm »

Peter...

Yea yeas and yas -> yes! Your brainstorm looks alike mine, however different we express it. I "know" what happens, but rather fail to express in common language what it is.

Mentioning only that track with Joan is only a very obvious example among many, where the things are x-posed to the utmost.

Now I can only imagine a #3/double (explosive) which does not tare things appart so it cannot be recogniced as a musical event, but rather a "microphone on everything" multi split, no way sounding livelike, huhaaa piece of music.
I feel sure you are right in the tailwind of the UFO you're seeking. Your words tells me that.

What is here:

You wrote:

We (Bert and me) already found that what can be done with software (no DSP !) can also be done with loudspeaker filters. Well, to a large extend anyway. Trust me, the differences with a filter can be day and night (and within 0.5 seconds audible -> I mean this), but only when the source is right !!!

I don't know if you two discovered that alone. I feel I discovered it many years ago. Even without having the source right. (Sorry Vinyl Records).

A favorit discussion point between us BTW. However what came first, we know they are all dependent on each other. It takes one to know one, right?

I don't want to twist the things here. If a loudspeaker is phase-correct in the sence we both know and rather linear too, it is almost all related to the source. The speaker just reply.
An amp can just sustain it. Or said otherwise, a perfect amp: don't hinder it to happen.

The science of the loudspeakers does not directly lead to understanding the perfect players blessings. Why? Because the speakers are just an oposite of a stereo michrophone.
Your player is doing another kind of job here IMO.

It expose the happening while recorded. If it is the perfect bit streaming, reading or others to me unknown category, I don't know. I know what I hear. And I like it. I like the possibility it offers to be in the head of the recording engineer and just hear what he/she hear and why he/she didn't hear it fail or heard it succeed. And that comes very much to the right core:

PHASE coherence.

If he/she does'nt hear a womans voice "suck" while the rest "blows", he should be kicked out of the studio.

But maybe they don't have the tools Peter. They cannot hear it?

There are so many new things going on here in my listening room, and that is not about the speakers being perfect. I know that department well. Heard what that does the last 15 years.
It is the source/player thing that makes a difference here. That is to honor for the non-dsiturbing standing waves and the absolute phase mess detection in recordings. Nothing else.

No replies from me for a 10 days to come..."out of space" for a while.

Gerner  Happy

 



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Troubleless playback.
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