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Author Topic: Async-USB 24/768 NOS1 up and running!  (Read 44210 times)
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Flecko
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 02:51:04 pm »

The length and quality of the usb cable is important if the device draws power over the cable. That is easily hearable. If the device has it's own power supply the impact of the calbe becomes much smaler. I tested this with my DI, which has it's own supply. Between a 60cm Monster USB cable and two 4.5m Noname USB extensions + 60cm Monster cable I could not hear any difference. The test was "quick and dirty" but I have no bad feeling because of the use of the extensions. It is for sure dependent on the device you use but if it is done the right way, it should hardly matter.
Especially Aqvox is a firm that likes to collect money for nothing. Look at their usb driver. They sell you the "Aqvox USB Driver" for 100€ which is 1:1 a driver developed by ploytec, which costs 50€. this driver is also included in a lot of studio usb equipment which costs including the driver about 100€. The same with "their" new amp-xt, which looks like a copy a BMC amp-1. They print Aqvox on the label and collect 1000€ more. I would not buy anything from them.
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 03:00:04 pm »

Oh boy ...

Losses ? LOSSES ? what losses ? this is data (no audio).

Furthermore this can only be about noise. I tell you : no noise is there.

Don't believe all you read (without knowing the ins and outs really).

Peter
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christoffe01
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 04:03:53 pm »

Oh boy ...

Losses ? LOSSES ? what losses ? this is data (no audio).


Peter

Peter,

I wrote

quotation mark - losses - quotation mark

whatever it might be.

best

Joachim
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 04:48:16 pm »

When I was using a synchronous usb interface (a much modded m audio transit) I tried a lot of usb cables and they did make a difference. The best setup by far was a diy unshielded woven cable with 3 hot wires and 2 earth all 0.5mm silver. The cable was just under a meter with only signal, no power. It beat all comers and made a noticeable difference to sound quality.

That was synchronous usb however, Peter is using asynchronous and depending on the transfer protocol across the usb this could really just be the same as data transfer from the pc into the NOS interface. If this is so then the time critically only exists when the data is clocked in to the ADCs so no real problems with the usb cables. This is all just guess work only Peter really knows  Happy

Anyway I would be happy to try my best diy silver cable against the one Peter recommends when my asynchronous NOS1 comes back. I buy into what Peter is saying though and I don't think I am going to hear any difference. Will let you know, it might save a little money  Happy

Best,

Nick.

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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2011, 04:52:33 pm »

Especially Aqvox is a firm that likes to collect money for nothing. Look at their usb driver. They sell you the "Aqvox USB Driver" for 100€ which is 1:1 a driver developed by ploytec, which costs 50€. this driver is also included in a lot of studio usb equipment which costs including the driver about 100€. The same with "their" new amp-xt, which looks like a copy a BMC amp-1. They print Aqvox on the label and collect 1000€ more. I would not buy anything from them.

Adrian, you are aware that B.M.C and Aqvox are closely related, right? (Although we all know that husband and wife teams are a nightmare Tongue) Also, if you look at their respective phono stages, the AQVOX (which I actually have) is substantially cheaper, though I'm sure not as good quailty.

The B.M.C. amps look really interesting, on paper at least, and seem pretty well-priced too. I've read the reviews on the B.M.C. website, but does anyone have any first-hand experience?

Mani
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2011, 05:07:07 pm »

What some of you, maybe, do not get, is that there is USB in general, and USB with high attention from someone like me;

If you leave USB without attention it is super-sh*t and your cables *will* help - but don't solve the cause. In the end this is not related to async USB or not, although async USB will indeed not incur for "data loss" (with or without quotes).

So, it is about noise, and exactly the reason why even async USB DACs are subject to XXHighEnd influence (never mind for now how *that* works).

All 'n all you you seem to think that USB is some very transparent and untouchable thing, but it really is not. Well, not in my hands. Happy

Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2011, 05:18:05 pm »

Some days ago I stumbled over this excellent interview in UltraAudio on Music Server design

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:matan-arazi-on-music-servers&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

Here is an extract from the interview talking about noise:

Jeff Fritz: How important is noise -- electrical, mechanical, etc. -- in a music server? Is EMI or RFI an issue?

Matan Arazi: Extremely important. Once we’ve established that a music server is bit-accurate (and virtually all good ones are), and after we’ve reduced jitter to the minimum possible, we have to start looking at the analog aspects of the digital connection to the DAC. Let me explain this for a second: Even though the connection between the music server and the DAC is a digital one, that digital signal still passes through a cable, which is an analog medium. Transmitting a pure digital signal through any analog medium requires infinite bandwidth, which can be achieved only theoretically. Thus, the digital signals are modulated (the exact modulation type depends on the type of connection and cable) so they can be transmitted through a cable, and the modulation/demodulation process can add undesired effects to the signal. In most computer-based scenarios this isn’t a problem, but with a DAC it matters, because DACs bridge the digital and analog domains and are highly susceptible to analog noise. Furthermore, since the computer is an environment full of electromagnetic noise, some of this noise can be transmitted by the cable and work its way into the DAC. Based on our experiments, I believe that differences in the analog parameters of the connection between the music server and the DAC account for the majority of the differences in how different music servers sound, even when using the same DAC. It is this radiated noise (along with differences in grounding) which is also the reason why some people notice differences in the sound when different USB cables are used, or why music servers with solid-state disk drives generally sound better than those with mechanical hard drives. As before, less vibration and less noise mean better quality.
(text in bold by me)

Further on XXHighEnd is mentioned favorable  Wink

In addition, using dedicated playback applications, such as the excellent Amarra or XXHighEnd programs, is beneficial because these programs are carefully designed to optimize audio quality by minimizing various parameters inside the computer that can interfere with the playback or increase noise or jitter.

In my humble opinion this interview about Arazi's all out assault on a state of the art Audeeva Conbrio music server is a very interesting read for us computer audiophiles - with a lot of insight into what goes into different aspects of construction. Just thought I would share it.

Per
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2011, 05:46:14 pm »

Quote
Adrian, you are aware that B.M.C and Aqvox are closely related, right? (Although we all know that husband and wife teams are a nightmare Tongue) Also, if you look at their respective phono stages, the AQVOX (which I actually have) is substantially cheaper, though I'm sure not as good quailty.
No I wasn't! This explains the similarity in the amp design. I got mad at them after I found out the USB driver rip off. And since they seem to take technology made by others and selling it for a higher price I put them from my list. There is good stuff in their program. But it looks at least possible, that you will get the same things from another distributor for less money.

Quote
The B.M.C. amps look really interesting, on paper at least, and seem pretty well-priced too. I've read the reviews on the B.M.C. website, but does anyone have any first-hand experience?
They do. But I think there could be a flaw. They use the current of the outputstage of the DAC. And this is normaly not designed to deliver current. I guess the input impedance will be low due to that concept (I can not find a datasheet) and this could limit the number of DACs with which this amp will sound good.
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christoffe01
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2011, 06:08:51 pm »

USB

please see:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/90402.html

also highly possible: HF distortions, signal reflexions due to impedance mismatches

----------------------------------

another interesting link

http://www.sabritec.com/technotes/PDF/High_Speed_Digital_Tutorial.pdf

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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2011, 11:56:36 pm »

Some days ago I stumbled over this excellent interview in UltraAudio on Music Server design

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:matan-arazi-on-music-servers&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

Haha, here is what Matan goes on to say:

"Since the FireWire and USB interfaces are actually PCI devices inside the computer, I would bypass them if possible, as Peter does in his Phasure DAC and its PCI Express umbilical."

Peter, apparently you've gone the wrong way going from PCI to async-USB.

I think Matan's favourite DAC is the Pacific Microsonics Model Two. Being able to compare the two, I know he'd be blown away by the async-USB NOS1.

Mani.
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« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2011, 01:06:04 am »

@Christoffe
Thanks for the links. Especially the second one is interesting. A nice summary of signal transmission (also it seems my estimation of the slewrate was right Happy). But the point is, that if you transfer data, not audio, via usb there is an error correction. That will compensate for such effects. otherwise you would not be able to copy a picture or a program onto an usb stick for example. It depends on the USB interface and how it cummunicates with the pc. I am no expert on this, Peter can you explain it? How does this digital audio would look like and how is it handeld compared to the data? In which cases we have a digital audio signal (no error correction) and when we have data, if we listen to music from pc?
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2011, 05:01:59 am »

Some days ago I stumbled over this excellent interview in UltraAudio on Music Server design

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:matan-arazi-on-music-servers&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

Haha, here is what Matan goes on to say:

"Since the FireWire and USB interfaces are actually PCI devices inside the computer, I would bypass them if possible, as Peter does in his Phasure DAC and its PCI Express umbilical."

Peter, apparently you've gone the wrong way going from PCI to async-USB.

I think Matan's favourite DAC is the Pacific Microsonics Model Two. Being able to compare the two, I know he'd be blown away by the async-USB NOS1.

Mani.

I saw that too, Mani. To me it just shows how much Peter is ahead of the so called cutting edge with his new usb nos1 dac design.

Per
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2011, 08:33:14 am »

USB

here we can find nearly all informations about .......... .

http://www.usb.org/developers
http://www.usb.org/developers/usbfaq/
http://www.usb.org/about/faq/
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2011, 09:54:38 am »

Quote
But the point is, that if you transfer data, not audio, via usb there is an error correction. That will compensate for such effects. otherwise you would not be able to copy a picture or a program onto an usb stick for example. It depends on the USB interface and how it cummunicates with the pc. I am no expert on this, Peter can you explain it? How does this digital audio would look like and how is it handeld compared to the data? In which cases we have a digital audio signal (no error correction) and when we have data, if we listen to music from pc?

Of course error correction is important - *if* there are errors. But IMO this is seeking for things which normally don't occur anyway. Similar to normal CD reading (by a CD Player) which may read errorneously and because the lack of time to re-reread (inifitely like EAC) it will spit out the errors (outside inherent error correction). So, do we care ? yes if the results are ticks etc. (and this sure happens !), no (again IMO) when we might think it will degrade sound in general. I say this is non-sense because it would imply that the level (volume) is slightly changed (meaning the least siginificant bits are being read wrongly or twisted or make up something), which is not a logical thing at all. When errors are passed on, all will be wrong, and when it is about the most siginificant bit there will be a tick when the current (momentary) level is low, or when the level is high there will be a tick when -again- the most siginificant bit is read wrongly. All in between exists too, plus it is hard to imagine that when one audio word is wrong that this will be audible (merely think about a few 100 in a row).

Normal isochronous USB is the same. No error correction, but what's the real problem.

Which leads us to an asynchronous connection which indeed is about error corrected normal data. The conclusion must be no different : what can it help. Oh, it can help the other way around : too many errors will consume the bandwidth progressively, and *now* you have ticks and glitches and gaps (the data can not be delivered in time, no matter the buffer used with async).

So, done. Remember, my view.

But my view is also that this is all about jitter. Ok, I won't be the only one. *Now* things change, and they change from so many angles that the number of characters allowed in one post will be too few to complete it.

Jitter is about timing errors which is the most easy to be looked at as wow from a turn table. Even the frequency can be as low as one rev from an LP, or lower. But also rather infinitely higher.

The audio data -now looked at in the "audio stream" realm- is supposed to pass through the convertes (D/A but also A/D) in a 100% constant fashion. We don't need to look at 0's and 1's to understand that the letting loose of the samples (like 44100 per second) must be let loose in a most even fashion, or otherwise we'd have strange things on the frequencies happening. Just keep on thinking wow from the turn table ...

The "frequency" (!) in which the samples are let loose are determined by some clock. Let's not make it difficult, and let's imagine the clock to be right next to the D/A chips.
The clock is (or can be) a crystal, and although it will have its own resonation (frequency) it is driven by current. Or voltage if you want, but Ohm's law will tell you that it is about both always, at least when one can change.

Although it won't be the 100% truth (or at least not in all cases) it is now the most easy to think that the voltage level can change by influences on the current. So, hammer on the current in the same circuitry somewhere, and the voltage (and/or current) that drives our must-be-stable clock, will have impact on the stability of that clock. Yes, we talk about picoseconds or less these days, as the impact of time difference on a certain frequency. Let the clock run fraster and the frequency we want to hear gets higher. If that would be all, it is no problem, except for that our music track may last 5 seonds less than officially intended. But it is about the stability and and roughly said the clock outputting a different frequency of her pulses within that picosecond dimension.
Now high frequencies (like 10KHz) will be disturbed.

Because many things happen inside of an audio chain (I extend this way outside the DAC on purpose), all kind of "self frequencies" hammer on that supply for the clock. It could be the 50/60Hz mains supply, it can be a voltage regulator (of any random high speed), there can be 100 of those regulators in one device, it can be that other clock in there (like a base 48KHz vs. a base 44.1KHz), it can be a receiver chip - it can be way many;

All these frequencies, also depending on their individual level, interact. They interact to a multitude of additional (!) new frequencies. Now it will not be hard to imagine that these may come together (in one peak) once per 10 seconds, 1 minute, 3 minutes or even days. Now we are talking about the real wow, and it really exists. It is mighty audible as well, at the moment you heard the same without. For example, a nylon string guitar can sound so straight. But with jitter, you wouldn't know what is wrong, because it just sounds good, and you wouldn't know how the artist manipulated the strings. Btw, a Jazz guitar the same.

Since there's all the talk about "computer noise" sneaking into our DACs, I should be mentioning noise as that other reason having impact on jitter. There is not much difference with the before layout, because noise is again about hammering frequenies on to our signal. In the end there *is* no difference, and I say that even white noise does not exist. Maybe at the molecule level, but we will never get to see *that*, because there's always other sh*t around first.

When this "noise" gets into our clock supply, there is not much difference on the impact, although there may be a difference on the current fluctuation. So, the before outlay merely suggested that the current was not stable and thus something like a clock needing current is not able to run stable (think of a car which continuously holds back and forth again), while with noise coming from outside the voltage peaks will not be stable (think of a lamp dimming and back on the frequency of the mains). Now it is a matter of stuff relying on voltage peaks (and all digital is !), and *now* we have the problem of slopes (of voltage waves) arriving earlier and later, just because noise (illegal peaks) ride on them. And hey, here is mr jitter again ! (this time *behind* the clock, the square wave coming from it having its slopes changed).

Now, on to our subject (wasn't that USB ?), all we need to know is that it is the worst. It creates 8KHz spikes because that is the frequency of USB and how it transmits the packets of data. If you look at it, it's only 20dB or so (I forgot) above the normal noise floor. But since I claim that noise rides ON the signal, I say it sounds like sh*t. And it really does. And for those who again recall why I was reluctant to go any USB route ... now you know.

This noise not only rides on the signal, it influences all angles I talked about above. So, not only the analogue signal because you'll see it back as a modulated signal on top of that audio signal, but long before that it influenced jitter by all means thinkable. This is also why USB DACs don't measure good on jitter at all (maybe by now this changed, I don't follow everything and all).

By now you will also be able to imagine how any computer noise will sneak into any interface means, USB foremost, because that packet sending current surge starts in the PC. But the other way around as well : anything that happens in the PC will influence that signal itself. So now we have the 8KHz with a superimposed other pile of frequencies and from there the mess is unpredictable, but it *is* a mess.

And by now you'll also start to understand how software like XXHighEnd can exlicitly influence all this ...
And this is not by changing any bits. Happy

Peter

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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2011, 02:53:16 pm »

Thanks for your explanaition Peter.
Some things poped up my mind while reading this.

1. About errorneously read out of cd's:
Quote
So, do we care ? yes if the results are ticks etc. (and this sure happens !), no (again IMO) when we might think it will degrade sound in general. I say this is non-sense because it would imply that the level (volume) is slightly changed (meaning the least siginificant bits are being read wrongly or twisted or make up something), which is not a logical thing at all. When errors are passed on, all will be wrong, and when it is about the most siginificant bit there will be a tick when the current (momentary) level is low, or when the level is high there will be a tick when -again- the most siginificant bit is read wrongly. All in between exists too, plus it is hard to imagine that when one audio word is wrong that this will be audible (merely think about a few 100 in a row).
I once made a test with hexcompare. I compared three different settings in EAC. The settings were:
1. Setteing the hook at Accurate Stream and Drive buffers data.
2. Setting the hook just at buffers data
3. Setting the hook at reads CRC error information, Accurate Stream and Drive buffers data.

For the first two settigns I got exactly the same data with hex compare. They off course sounded the same.
The third setting produced a different kind of data. All the numbers shown in hexcompare were changed. It also sounded different.
I decided that method 1 and 2 should be prefered because they gave the same results. But wouldn't this mean that you can alter audio data in a  way you do not hear clicks and pops but a slight alteration of the sound?

2.: About noise
Quote
When this "noise" gets into our clock supply, there is not much difference on the impact, although there may be a difference on the current fluctuation. So, the before outlay merely suggested that the current was not stable and thus something like a clock needing current is not able to run stable (think of a car which continuously holds back and forth again), while with noise coming from outside the voltage peaks will not be stable (think of a lamp dimming and back on the frequency of the mains). Now it is a matter of stuff relying on voltage peaks (and all digital is !), and *now* we have the problem of slopes (of voltage waves) arriving earlier and later, just because noise (illegal peaks) ride on them. And hey, here is mr jitter again ! (this time *behind* the clock, the square wave coming from it having its slopes changed).
There is on the one hand the strive for high speed and low latency but if it is all about noise and jitter, wouldn't it be very important to have the pc hardware as simple as possible? Like one of those intel atom pc's or maybe an uATX mainboard would be preferable to use for an audio pc. You would stop the creation of noise from it's beginning because there are less parts that can create noise. This would be what cics did with the Fit-PC2. Did you ever tryed such a simplified setup?
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Hardware: | Gigabyte X79-UD3 | i7-3820 | 16 GB DDR3 | OS on 128 GB Samsung SSD 830  | Music on 2TB WD Caviar Green | Seasonic X-660

XXHE Settings: | Engine 4 | Adaptive | Buffer=1024 | Q12345=[14,0,0,0,0] | xQ1=1 | Q5=3 | Scheme=3 | Mixed Contiguous with SFS=12 | 176.4kHz32bit | ArcPred + Peakextend | Clock=1ms |
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