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Author Topic: SQ of WAV vs M4A  (Read 21580 times)
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christoffe
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« on: February 09, 2014, 07:48:52 pm »

Hey Eric, super.

Can you send me two of these from m4a converted tracks ?
Thanks,
Peter

Hi,

I’m a little bit late for the following question.
Did anyone compare the (with dBpoweramp) regenerated WAV file from a m4a with the ORIGINAL WAV from a CD.
The sizes of both WAV files have nearly identical values – but the SQ?

Thanx
Joachim
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christoffe
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 01:29:52 am »

I made a comparison and the result can save us some money, at least with the newer releases/records on iTunes.
I bought the Fourplay album "Esprit De Four" at Itunes and as a CD. The Itunes m4a copy was converted with the internal Itunes converter from dBpoweramp, and the CD was ripped via dBpoweramp, latest version.

You see both tracks loaded in iZotope RX 3, and the graphic shows no difference.
The SQ was nearly identical except in the end of the track the cymbals on the Itunes copy were lacking in resolution.

Joachim


* CD.png (2025.54 KB, 1200x750 - viewed 757 times.)

* Itunes.png (2027.33 KB, 1200x750 - viewed 863 times.)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 08:39:46 am »

Hi there Joachim,

I don't know what makes you think that you can compare the quality of tracks (rips etc.) by such super rough means of pictures, but ... you can't.

Still a somewhat more trained eye can see that these two versions clearly are not the same and they should not sound the same; whether really perceivable is something else.

I don't know how that conversion can fail and I also don't know how your rip can have failed - similar as that I don't know whether both versions were not the same to begin with. So :

Your rip is more compressed or the conversion couldn't deal with the soft limiting applied to the track in order (and it made less limiting of it);
The easiest for me is to think that both tracks were not the same to begin with.

I am sure that if we look inside of the tracks (drill down to the real data) both are all over different.

Regards,
Peter
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christoffe
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 10:35:32 am »

Hi Peter,
The CD was ripped with a Plextor PX-L890UE as I'm used to.

When we are looking to the peaks of the upper channel, it looks nearly identical. Both copies shows a frequency cut a 20KHz, and that should not be at the Itunes copy, it should be at lower frequencies, or not?

I made cuts with two different resolutions at the marked peak of the upper channel. See CD picture above.

Joachim


* CD_01.png (1283.12 KB, 1000x625 - viewed 839 times.)

* Itunes_01.png (1280.62 KB, 1000x625 - viewed 796 times.)

* CD_detail.png (944.5 KB, 1000x625 - viewed 800 times.)

* Itunes_detail.png (953.32 KB, 1000x625 - viewed 809 times.)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 10:41:51 am »

A question first Joachim :

Quote
Both copies shows a frequency cut a 20KHz, and that should not be at the Itunes copy, it should be at lower frequencies, or not?

Why ?
(I just don't understand)
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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christoffe
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 11:26:11 am »

A question first Joachim :

Quote
Both copies shows a frequency cut a 20KHz, and that should not be at the Itunes copy, it should be at lower frequencies, or not?

Why ?
(I just don't understand)

I thought that AAC-LC limits higher frequencies, but that is not the case.
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christoffe
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 12:21:11 pm »


I don't know how that conversion can fail and I also don't know how your rip can have failed

Regards,
Peter

I checked the rip again it is identical with AccurateRip.
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AlainGr
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 02:04:07 pm »

Hi Joachim,

I thought that AAC was lossy compression ? I am surprised...

Alain
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PeterSt
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2014, 02:22:06 pm »

http://www.applelossless.com/
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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christoffe
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 03:05:15 pm »

Hello,

the tracks are bought from iTunes and they claim to use AAC-LC.
I was very astonished that the newer recordings at iTunes are nearly identical in their graphs (WAV) with the CD rippings  since the beginning of 2013.

There should be a difference, but it seems .......... .

http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/bf/amm/produkte/audiocodec/audiocodecs/aaclc.html

best

Joachim
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 03:25:39 pm »

Hello,

the tracks are bought from iTunes and they claim to use AAC-LC.
I was very astonished that the newer recordings at iTunes are nearly identical in their graphs (WAV) with the CD rippings  since the beginning of 2013.

There should be a difference, but it seems .......... .

http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/bf/amm/produkte/audiocodec/audiocodecs/aaclc.html

best

Joachim

from Peter's link:

Quote
Apple Lossless files are stored in the MPEG 4 container and have a .m4a extension. The MPEG 4 container is also used for Advanced Audio Compression (AAC), a lossy compression (currently all tracks purchased from iTunes Music Store (iTMS) are AAC).

Have a .m4a file but do not know if it contains Apple Lossless or AAC? dBpoweramp Music Converter is able to show the contents (Apple Lossless or AAC) of an m4a file, by simply holding the mouse over.

Maybe they do lossless in the Apple Store after all...
Otherwise checksums cannot be the same (accurate rip)

regards, Coen
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Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 03:44:41 pm »

Quote
Otherwise checksums cannot be the same (accurate rip)

But that was about Joachim's own rip of the CD version. Not sure how to check against AccurateRip with a download.
And then *still* it doesn't tell much because 10 versions of an album can exist and they will (normally) all be in the AccurateRip database ...

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 03:58:02 pm »

Quote
Otherwise checksums cannot be the same (accurate rip)

But that was about Joachim's own rip of the CD version. Not sure how to check against AccurateRip with a download.
And then *still* it doesn't tell much because 10 versions of an album can exist and they will (normally) all be in the AccurateRip database ...

Peter

check!

That would be the most surprising: itunes store and CD from the same source!

regards, Coen
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 04:06:34 pm »

I never looked into iTunes and I guess I never will (it's like a virus on your PC). But now I don't know ... Is it maybe commonly known that the M4A from iTunes should be normal CD quality but it is not ?

At least I can think that it's a dirty trick to present M4A as CD quality while it just as well can be lossy (like MP3 (AAC)) and that maybe nothing is going to detect that really; I mean I too can easily save an MP3 (for example) after it has been expanded to WAV and save it as WAV. Nothing would detect the difference except possibly your ears and spectral analysis.

Peter
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W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2014, 04:46:01 pm »

I never looked into iTunes and I guess I never will (it's like a virus on your PC). But now I don't know ... Is it maybe commonly known that the M4A from iTunes should be normal CD quality but it is not ?

At least I can think that it's a dirty trick to present M4A as CD quality while it just as well can be lossy (like MP3 (AAC)) and that maybe nothing is going to detect that really; I mean I too can easily save an MP3 (for example) after it has been expanded to WAV and save it as WAV. Nothing would detect the difference except possibly your ears and spectral analysis.

Peter
And the checksum...

Alain
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