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Author Topic: Orelo MK-II mini review  (Read 65661 times)
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vrao
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 03:35:54 pm »

CoenP

Thank you ....

Looks like everyone is talking a different idea from it. I would not discount this speaker that easily  Wink .

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/0609/

I've had the opportunity to see MF in action a few times ... and am familiar with how he works ...

VJ

P.s. The truth might be a bit hard to digest. It is what it is straightly put .... untrained ears variable and biased results. Untrained golden ears .... same. Go thro the golden ear training program from HR or Phillips .... there is some standardization there.
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vrao
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 04:10:26 pm »

So,

Since I was alerted to the nuances of a prior post, a bit of friendly exchange ....  all in good faith  Wink

Someone the other day touted graphenes cables as a good choice for conductors.... the  "fact"  is scientists were only recently able to use graphene for conduction ... I mean in the last few weeks. So where does friction lie?

As a participant in multiple national and international studies .... I value standardized testing, otherwise there is no baseline. Science is built on reproducibility ....

What did I learn ..... plain and simple ..... utilizing scientifically proven technology in my room had a more drastic effect to music reproduction since I can remember ....maybe Oreleo and the Phasure DAC.

Science .... you should try it some time .... it's fantastic  Happy

Kidding aside .... I'm now a proponent for room acoustics...

Best,
VJ
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CoenP
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 05:25:43 pm »

Especially for the American readers among us, I'd take the "you" which Coen presents several times, figurative, and not as addressing VJ directly by it. Maybe it reads the same in English/American as how we Dutch bring such things forward, but it easily is not.

And Coen, if it was your intention to address this to VJ after all, you will speak up, right ?

No, not at all. This is about my opinion on the content of the video and I'd be gladly confronted with insights that dispute it! The "you/your" should be taken as part of the expression, not addressing a specific person or group.
 
I got triggered into reacting to this thread solely because of the video (actually about the half i've seen) VJ shared here. The interpretations presented in this part were in my view at least disputable if not of low relevance. Please note that I have no problems with the scientific approach at all, but i object to the lack of prudence wrt to the interpretation of the results.

Now, I probably missed the more interesting parts Wink lets spend some time on the second half!

regards, Coen
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Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 05:43:33 pm »

P.s. The truth might be a bit hard to digest. It is what it is straightly put .... untrained ears variable and biased results. Untrained golden ears .... same. Go thro the golden ear training program from HR or Phillips .... there is some standardization there.

Agree, I would not expect something else. Standardized training of "ears" is a very interesting concept. Is it possible at all?

Good sound (if such a thing exists) is a pretty tough subject to capture scientifically. And if you were able to capture it, what would that mean in an "average" consumer setting where looks, practicality and price are more important? Ironically the very group that chases the same goal are the despised (untrained) audio fanatics. 

Blind testing is in my opinion somewhat handicapped though it may lead to a wonderful result. Ever tried to eat delicious gourmet food blindfolded or nice food that was purposely colored in an unnatural tint? The same food actually tastes different has scientific research shown.

regards, Coen
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Settings: Qn: , SFS: , timeres: XT tweaks: , buf: 4096, driver: 8 ms,

Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
PeterSt
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 06:19:20 pm »


So ... I just learnt that I must listen to Mono for testing because I am used to that as I am listening to a (television) center speaker always anyway ?!?
I don't even have a center speaker.

The end of it unveils all : when it doesn't sound good, it is the recording. But take a nice pair of H-K speakers first. prankster

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vrao
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 06:37:39 pm »

Fascinating,

Everyone took a different message from this talk...

For me it was the speaker behavior off axis, power response as he called it. This is most critical, as I've experienced with the addition of acoustic treatments. If the reflections do not replicate the original wave (uneven frequency, temporal, power output), will fail authentication ... as the reflections are not confirming the first/original wave from the speaker (this in addition to a whole other parameters).

Speaker testing .... looks like is still a long way off from being standardized.

Best,
VJ
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PeterSt
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:22 pm »

Hey VJ,

What I noticed is that this (more and less) off axis response mighty much looks like the F-M curves of the Orelo MKII. Not sure whether it would represent the same, but it may.

Regards,
Peter
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W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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vrao
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 07:12:40 pm »

Ahaa!!

Yes indeed   Good job !

Happy
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 08:04:16 pm »

VJ,

I have not watched the video, but am somewhat familiar with Toole, and I think Linkwitz more or less follows Toole's design ideas.

What I have understood from Toole/Linkwitz is that they treat reflections as good and necessary BUT only if the reflected sound and direct sound have the same quality, so that as we humans "stream" the two together it creates a realistic auditory scene.

So both Toole/Linkwitz seem to prefer monopole/dipole type configurations with uniform power response (on-axis and off-axis).  This seems very different from designs that stress constant/controlled directivity (like horns), and more direct vs reflected sound.

What you seem to be doing is increasing the direct/reflected ratio, is that correct? Or just minimizing certain problematic reflections?  Wondering if the lack of open space behind you in your room is a unique situation you need to manage.

Also, at least with Linkwitz, there is little discussion of IM distortion (he likes long throw drivers for example), need for high sensitivity, dynamic range needed, and so on.  Not to mention generally ignoring the "front" end!!
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vrao
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 08:37:36 pm »

Ramesh,

A few steps higher ..... Wink

So called uniform response is a unicorn.... in what domain is it? just power ... not enough ...  Happy  other variable are indeed required.

I'm putting forward the conclusion ... with what Bert/Peter have achieved .... controlling the reflections will enhance the systems performance well beyond presently possible ... wide/narrow dispersion or otherwise ...... All it requires is to incorporate room treatments  Wink

New acoustic panels and new position of the speakers now have near completely solved room interactions.

If you are visiting LA, round 2 ....  Happy



 
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 10:11:35 pm »

Guys, don't be too quick to instantly dismiss Floyd Tooles works.  Without his decades of research and constant access to R&D funds to set up and perform literally thousands of blind tests in pretty much the same controlled environment I think that speaker design would still be in the dark ages...hit and miss. 

As a result of his work we know that controlled directivity and even power response are THE basic things that make or break how a speaker sounds.  His work also tells us what "most" people like to hear, and that is a diffuse sound field (i.e. lots of room reflections) with the reflections being the same frequency spectrum as the direct sound, which is where controlled directivity and power response come in i.e. a speaker sounds exactly the same on and off axis.

Of course one test setup cannot test every variant of speaker design out there, but I really do think that his basic results are indisputable.  It does not mean that he has tested everything that influences sound quality, but he does know the easy way to make a speaker sound "better", and that is the radiation pattern of its sound field.

The Orelo MKII does not have the ideal radiation pattern that Toole promotes because it uses a tractrix horn expansion (not conical or OSWG) but it is a point source and it does control the directivity of the sound above the room frequency.  Funny thing is that most of those that actually "listen" to horns prefer the tractrix expansion to those couple of expansions that are more technically correct.

As for the power response, I have no idea how the Orelo MKII fares, that stuff is difficult to measure so very few actually do it unless you have a facility just for that purpose.
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 11:18:23 am »

You can promote a speaker without marginalizing your audience.

In this video the new Beolab 90 fully active speakers technicalities are explained:

https://youtu.be/yC0hjRHCYs0

This speaker is designed in such a way that it is able to manipulate the directivity. The implications of directivity for the perception of location are mentioned as well as the link with the work environment of the sound engineers.

It is a speaker born out of passion for audio and thoroughness. Interesting material and imho relevant results are presented since we all listen to a stereo system and share the objectives.

regards, Coen



 
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 03:22:29 pm »

Beolab

I've had the opportunity to hear these speakers at the pre release party here in Beverly Hills, LA (invite Only  Wink). I was quite excited about the event, considering it had what I thought ideal parameters for a acoustic transducer. The ability to integrate and manipulate listening window. Granted it was not the most ideal setup. A bit noisy from the busy Rodeo Drive, MP3 only, I did not find it special. Also a sense of DSP failure... too many transducers, the wide dispersion was disappointing (uneven power response)and the narrow mode was decent, but nothing special for the asking price or even less than half of it. The image density was poor. The SNR was as good as a decent car stereo. Again this was with the shortcoming as mentioned.

Did you get to audition it? I would be interested in your experience  Happy

Best,
VJ

*Edit* -  forgot, the above was also confirmed by a second pair of ears1, a friend who I had invited. He's heard my old set up...
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vrao
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 04:11:48 pm »

You can promote a speaker without marginalizing your audience.

Only thing I'm promoting (if this is directed to me), is room treatments ... Happy can't say it enough.

All it takes is a few diffusers for the first reflection. And bass traps (if needed), and maybe corner traps.

It will enhance "any present PHASURE" system well beyond expected. The SNR is so good that "the room" is the BIG limiting factor. A whole set of distortions that you thought didn't exist will disappear.

I would love for others to try it, if they haven't .....

Simple but "most" essential upgrade!

 Wink
VJ
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CoenP
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2017, 09:11:32 pm »

You can promote a speaker without marginalizing your audience.

... (if this is directed to me)...

No way!

Please be a room treatment evangelist!

I've my share of room problems too. I've never being able to give left and right completely the same balance and have great stereo at the same time.

The merits of room treatments are well advertised, but you rarely encounter a room that has been "treated" for good audio (save for some voodoo patches or curtains on the wall -no wife!-). I never followed up to my plans to make a diffusor, I guess electronics are much more sexy to me.

In the end the acoustical room correctors make a lot of sense in a stereo setting where we aim for identical response. As I learned from the better part of the video speaker placement has a large influence in the sub 300Hz area. No way that is going to be the same for each speaker in a real untreated room.

regards, Coen
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Settings: Qn: , SFS: , timeres: XT tweaks: , buf: 4096, driver: 8 ms,

Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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