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Author Topic: u10 vs. u8  (Read 24345 times)
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andy74
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 07:16:01 am »

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.
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PeterSt
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2008, 10:49:09 am »

Quote
As I understand In my case checking mem box shouldn't change SQ because I am listening 16/44 But it does somehow.

This is hard to tell or predict (in fact, I'm thinking of building in some log).
But that is why I told to check the memory; if it remains the same, it does nothing, and the executed code is really the same.
... I think / it should. But please tell the result of the Mem box and Memory useage.

And note that I will apply the changes according to your twisted brain. I like a twisted brain too, but then from a nice pint of beer. Happy


Now, I asked LydMekk per PM to describe the differences as well, say, in order not to get plecabo'd. The key is in his observations.
LydMekk, allow me to quote you from your PM :

Have compared u8 and u10 again tonight some 20 times. Played 1 WAV 44/16 EAC-ripped, Fourplay->Journey-Fields of Gold.

The difference is minute, but it's there. 08 Sounds "rounder" and more gentle. U10 has more energy and level in transient edges in the upper regions, maybe from mid and up, like plucking the cords on a guitar sounds higher and clearer. U8 has almost not enough "crispiness" but in u10 theres tilting towards to much.

Maybe u10 has a slightly bigger scene, but that may be the slightly increased playback level upwards.

Seems I can set the volume up a notch on 08, on u10 I can't play as loud. I kind of relaxes more with u8 than u10 but u10 sounds more "clear".

I know, I also starts to confuse myself here...twisting and turning trying to explain what is more of a "feeling"...

Above text was never implied by me, but shows exactly what I expected (from the code) and what I experience myself. Ok, I *did* talk about it earlier but in other contexts, and some year ago it was excessivley discussed elsewhere, because it is so hard to comprehend.
Note that LydMekk is playing Double/Upsampled, where this shows more than what I like, hence what I find bearable.

I earlier referred to "energy" and stuff, but which is not measurable. In fact it is easy to recognize, once you have the experience; this is about higher dynamics. So, what theoretically is applied now is the "crazy dynamics" as how I called them one year ago, and which came from an early XXEngine3 version in Double and Double/Upsample. It kind of happened by accident, but I never forgot it and how the code was. Now, this has been applied to the normal (not Double) version as well, with the remark of it not being able to express that well there, because of (one of the) explicit "de-jitter" operations not working (like Double would do that). But it is there ...

How do you notice ? well, very easy, you can't play that loud. How do you *really* notice ? even more easy : because your wife tells you it's too loud. To give an indication of the difference : I played at -24dB since the Digital Volume, once we all got used to the level of -30dB (per night), and now I play at -36dB and maybe I switch to -30dB. It just gets too loud otherwise. Not harsh, not disturbing, but just too loud. How can that be ?

Apart from quite some pages in order to (the attempt to) reason it out which I did one year ago, it can't. I mean, take out your dB meter and measure. There is just no difference. Mind you, this is about super transients, which possibly won't be caught by my slow meter. Still I set my volume 6dB lower, if not 12 ...

I can't be sure what it takes from the rest of the equipment to show this, but I know that my SS amps I had one year ago, including my Infinity R90s from back then, showed it easily. But, the band high-mid and tweeter in the R90's are capable of producing very high energy and are very fast ...
I am not sure what happens when the equipment is fed with these higher transients while it can't cope. You just won't notice ? plain distortion ? unwanted harmonics arise (is distortion of course) ? uncomfortable feeling ?

Stupid thing is, that I know that the highst level of "this" is better from theory. Better from the theory of the things I apply in the program, and assuming this can not overshoot, probably our systems can't cope with it ? I don't have the answer to this yet.

Might you have difficulties in recognizing it, try to pay attention to suddenly generally occurring similar things everywhere. In this case it would be about rattling the (wound) strings which every guitar player seems to be keen on (or can't avoid).

For those who think this is good (on their system), I can go one step further with this, although technically I don't know how to do it yet. So that's for later, when I have become more smart. Fishy
For those who think this is not good, I will create a checkbox "High Dynamics" for the next version. As how the code is setup now, this can easily be applied without changing the SQ in the base of either. Maybe I should call it "Low Dynamics" because I keep on thinking that the latest (0.9u-10) is theoretically better and should be default.

Peter
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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hybride
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2008, 06:13:51 pm »

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away Shocked wacko Grin
XXplay shines, but not on every speaker... Don't ask me why..
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LydMekk
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2008, 06:25:23 pm »

About XMplay with wasapi:

IMHO it doesn't have stability of the sound. It does not feel solid as opposed to XX.
I would say the sound more liquid, not stable.

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away Shocked wacko Grin
XXplay shines, but not on every speaker... Don't ask me why..

Welcome to the wonderful world of JMLab!  Happy
Have a Utopia Nova Be set myself and am very happy with the speakers.
The beryllium tweeters have a great resolution range IMO.

OT: Peter, will try out differences (or not) tonight trying playback without Double or Upsamp between u8 and u10. "And then we will see, won't we..."  prankster
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PeterSt
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2008, 06:45:24 pm »

Got my new tweeter today, so playing with my Focal 1037BE's again.
And what do you think... XX blows XMplay away Shocked wacko Grin

First of al big congrats hybride !
Then, I didn't want to suggest this directly, also because of "the" situation (you know ...), but if you read my before post again you can see it's dripping all over from it. yes
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Leo
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 12:20:36 pm »

How do you notice ? well, very easy, you can't play that loud. How do you *really* notice ? even more easy : because your wife tells you it's too loud. To give an indication of the difference : I played at -24dB since the Digital Volume, once we all got used to the level of -30dB (per night), and now I play at -36dB and maybe I switch to -30dB. It just gets too loud otherwise. Not harsh, not disturbing, but just too loud. How can that be ?

Apart from quite some pages in order to (the attempt to) reason it out which I did one year ago, it can't. I mean, take out your dB meter and measure. There is just no difference. Mind you, this is about super transients, which possibly won't be caught by my slow meter. Still I set my volume 6dB lower, if not 12 ...


This quote from you Peter exactly describes what I experience with the latest version. If I hadn't read your comment  before I would have made a post about what you had done to the volume. I had a similar experience with foobar (in the old days) with a german Asio driver that I had bought. I liked that driver a lot better than other ASIO drivers I tried. And it was much louder in my perception than other Foobar implementations.

Very interesting stuff this.
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