No sound from Empirical Audio/Off Ramp 3

[arvind]

Tried the new version 0.9y-1c but there was no sound at all. DAC settings are 24/96. The lock light on the DAC is on but the moment I click on play the light goes off. Can anyone help?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

First off, are your settings like you see them below ?


The latest version is 0.9y-1d, and that can matter. Not likely, but it can.
How the lock light is related, I don't know, but I never saw it off during testing here (but I also didn't pay explicit attention to that). Btw, I think the lock light is related to what is behind it, so ... what DAC do you use, and how is it connected (SPDIF/I2S) ?

Not any messages ?

And to be sure you're not trying something which may not be supported at all right now ... what type of file do you try to play ? (extension e.g. FLAC, bit depth, sample rate).


I have the (long shot) hunch your DAC may not accept 24 bits ? Or maybe not 24 bits for the 44.1 file you try to play ?

If the above doesn't help you, it may be the best to try 24/96 native files to start with. Thus, if your DAC accepts 24 bits, it for sure will accept 24/96. If you don't have such a file, you might briefly try Double/Upsample in XXHighEnd, which will make 24/88.2 of a 16/44.1 file in your case. BUT, not each DAC accepts 88.2. So, a native 24/96 file is better.

Lastly for now, this might help you trouble shooting :
The OffRamp only accepts 24 bits. Nothing more, nothing less. XXHighEnd takes care of this per the settings shown below.
What I do not know, is how it outputs. It may output 24 bits or it may output 32 bits (the extra 8 bits are zero in that case), and it will do only either of these, so not both. You DAC however, assuming it is a 24 bit device to begin with, in most of the cases will also accept either of it. Thus, it accepts 24 bits or it accepts 32 bits. Now what if that doesn't match the output of the OffRamp.
May it come down to this question being crucial (but first try everything else please) you really have to contact Steve Nugent and ask. Do not derive such data from his web site, because it is not reliable (I saw).
Anyway, let me know your DAC (I know it is an EMM), so maybe I can get something from it, although I'll never know righ now how the OffRamp outputs.

Oh, earlier (PM) you told me that Engine2 worked. Is that still the case with the same hardware setup ? If so, it really should be about the settings below, or otherwise things play a role beyond my current knowledge ...

Good luck for now !
Peter

[arvind]

Tried the new version 0.9y-1c but there was no sound at all. DAC settings are 24/96. The lock light on the DAC is on but the moment I click on play the light goes off. Can anyone help?

Arvind

Hi Peter,

Let me try & answer your questions one by one.
Firstly the version downloaded by me is 0.9y-1c. I will try the "d" version later today... time permitting.
The settings are exactly as mentioned by you. No messages appear.

I am using Wav files 16/44.1. DAC accepts upto 24/96, I am sure of that. Incidentally my DAC is EMM Labs DAC 6e. The Off Ramp is connected to the DAC by AES/EBU.

In my opinion Off Ramp accepts input of 16bits & converts it to 24 bits at the output.

I tried Engine #2 & 3, both didnt give any sound. Hardware set up is the same as earlier.

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Allright. I think you told me before (July 5 I think, PM) Engine2 gives sound.

1) No sound from Engine #3, but Engine # 2 gives sound.

Can you please try to determine what happened on your side ? Nothing changed to Engine#2 ...
Btw, don't forget to slide up the digital volume for Engine#3 (does nothing to #2).

In my opinion Off Ramp accepts input of 16bits & converts it to 24 bits at the output.

If that were so there wouldn't have been a problem in the first case. As said, don't believe the website, and possibly Steve doesn't know himself (this is very hard to test via player software, because all arranges for it automatically, except WASAPI).
But it is not important/relevant anymore.

Let me know about Engine#2, and please try to enforce yourself on getting that going again. I really didn't touch it, or otherwise I don't know about it. And to keep in mind also : others have the OffRamp running ...
Oh, at this stage (without further solution) it really is better to try 0.9-1d. I think this is related to Engine#2 as well (for some parts of the software).

Peter

[arvind]

Allright. I think you told me before (July 5 I think, PM) Engine2 gives sound.

1) No sound from Engine #3, but Engine # 2 gives sound.

Can you please try to determine what happened on your side ? Nothing changed to Engine#2 ...
Btw, don't forget to slide up the digital volume for Engine#3 (does nothing to #2).

In my opinion Off Ramp accepts input of 16bits & converts it to 24 bits at the output.

If that were so there wouldn't have been a problem in the first case. As said, don't believe the website, and possibly Steve doesn't know himself (this is very hard to test via player software, because all arranges for it automatically, except WASAPI).
But it is not important/relevant anymore.

Let me know about Engine#2, and please try to enforce yourself on getting that going again. I really didn't touch it, or otherwise I don't know about it. And to keep in mind also : others have the OffRamp running ...
Oh, at this stage (without further solution) it really is better to try 0.9-1d. I think this is related to Engine#2 as well (for some parts of the software).

Peter

Hi Peter,

Latest development are as follows:

Engine #1 & 2 give sound, but Engine # 3 no sound & no message; Lock light of the EMM DAC goes off once play is clicked.

I wrote to Steve Nugent regarding the bit depth & he has sent me an attachment of the chip being used in the Off Ramp. It is Texas Instrument TAS 1020A. Attaching the specs of the same.

Another question not related to this problem; how does one assign automatic random play of the tracks from the playlist?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hmm ... If you go to the Advanced tab of the properties of your sound device (thus the OffRamp), what bit depth and sample rate is selected there ?

[arvind]

Hmm ... If you go to the Advanced tab of the properties of your sound device (thus the OffRamp), what bit depth and sample rate is selected there ?

Hi Peter,

It shows 24/96.

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Thanks. Let me think ...

(stay with me)

[PeterSt]

Lock light of the EMM DAC goes off once play is clicked.

I know it is not consistent with the above, but the volume slider is all the way up ? (just to make sure)

[PeterSt]

Did you have the opportunity to play a native 24/96 file ?

[PeterSt]

Anyway ... this is what I put my horses on :

You have switched the EMM to 96KHz (and it can't switch automatically), use Engine2, Vista resamples to 96KHz and it works.

When you use Engine3, nothing is resampled, so 44.1 stays 44.1 and it does not work. The only thing which happens is that 16 bits are converted to 24 (by XX), and the next thing you will run into is that your DAC can't accept 24/44.1 (nothing about bit depths anywhere that I can see).

Lastly, the OffRamp does NOT accept 16 bits. Tell Steve.
If you don't mind, try to find a 16 bit selection in that property-Advanced screen. What do you see ?

Summarized, my horses are on :

1. The EMM not 24/44.1 capable;
2. The OffRamp not 16/44.1 capable.

This leaves you with not bit perfect options, like Engine2 and Vista, where Vista resamples to 24/96 for you.
Or ... a native 24/96 file.

But ... there is one other :
Tick Double in XX (not upsample !), which means it is going to output in 24/88.2. Now, the OffRamp accepts that, and the EMM will too.
If the EMM doesn't dig 24 bits at all (which I doubt) you have another problem.

Now :

[arvind]

Anyway ... this is what I put my horses on :

You have switched the EMM to 96KHz (and it can't switch automatically), use Engine2, Vista resamples to 96KHz and it works.

When you use Engine3, nothing is resampled, so 44.1 stays 44.1 and it does not work. The only thing which happens is that 16 bits are converted to 24 (by XX), and the next thing you will run into is that your DAC can't accept 24/44.1 (nothing about bit depths anywhere that I can see).

Lastly, the OffRamp does NOT accept 16 bits. Tell Steve.
If you don't mind, try to find a 16 bit selection in that property-Advanced screen. What do you see ?

Summarized, my horses are on :

1. The EMM not 24/44.1 capable;
2. The OffRamp not 16/44.1 capable.

This leaves you with not bit perfect options, like Engine2 and Vista, where Vista resamples to 24/96 for you.
Or ... a native 24/96 file.

But ... there is one other :
Tick Double in XX (not upsample !), which means it is going to output in 24/88.2. Now, the OffRamp accepts that, and the EMM will too.
If the EMM doesn't dig 24 bits at all (which I doubt) you have another problem.

Now :

HI Peter,

Well some encouragement at last: Got sound from Engine #3 finally. Let me mention the settings on XX & DAC.
Audio files are 16/44.1
XX is set on 24/96, with bit depth at 24.
DAC was changed from 48 KHz to 44.1KHz & I got sound.

Now where does this leave me, in terms of optimum sound quality from XX?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Now that is better news than I had hoped for ! So this means :

- Your DAC can do 24/44.1 afterall (or it truncates to 16 bit; this may be for you to find out, the manual doesn't talk about it).
- XXHighEnd converts the 16 bits to 24 bits for you, which does not touch sound at all, *unless* you attenuate digitally (in XX), then it is *better*;
- The path is bit perfect by itself;
- You are using the OffRamp to reclock the data (de-jitter).

I would say : nothing to complain about !

... but keep the checkbox "Allow Format Change" unticked, because your DAC won't do that automatically, and I can't predict the results when you try (you may receive static, because it really is the OffRamp responding to the software. And remember, so far you didn't have sound in such a situation, but that can turn out differently (thus, static)).

Well, good.
or ?

[PeterSt]

You can also set the EMM to double fs (as the manual talks about it) and play Double from XX. This doesn't harm (still bit perfect), as long as you don't upsample. This gives the opportunity to play native 24/96 of which I'm sure the OffRamp+EMM will dig.

Oh but wait, you'd have to switch from 44.1 to 48 then as well on the EMM (like how it was).

Anyway, I think you get the grasp now.

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I would like to go back to the situation while I was playing with Foobar.
The audio files were 16/44.1
Output bit depth was set on 16 bit.
Resampler was off; so no upsampling.
DAC was set on 2FS & 48KHz.

With this I was getting sound; now this goes against the theory that the Off Ramp does not accept 16 bit data & the EMM DAC was playing on 48KHz when the files are 44.1KHz? Could you pls explain this?

Since I have the trial XX, I could hear it for a short while before it switched off automatically, but I must say that the sound was significantly better than Foobar. Foobar sounds dull/veiled, the Bass is not tight in comparison to XX & the highs of XX are much more clear. Congratulations.

I have some questions on the operation of XX which I will put them in the appropriate place.

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi Arvind,

First of all I would say you can't have been using Foobar and WASAPI. In that case the OffRamp will not play when Foobar is set to output 16 bits. Only 24 work.

All will be about Vista works and your understanding of it;

In Vista there are two modes of playing : Shared and Exclusive.

Shared : The sound you play is mixed with possible other sounds and is inherently not bit perfect. Never (or not that I could find). The output to the DAC will be as per the settings in the Properties of the Sound Device - Advanced tab. As you saw, only 24 bit modes can be selected for the OffRamp, 44.1, 48 and 96KHz. Note that the OffRamp can do 88.2 just the same, and it is a Vista bug that doesn't show. BUT, because it doesn't show, it really can't work.
That 16 bit devices don't show is in Steve's hands, or those who wrote the driver software. So, the TAS chip may be able to process it a 100 times, when the driver doesn't allow it, that's the end.
Anyway to keep in mind : what ever you select there, is output to the DAC. This is totally unrelated to what software players output, and if that is 16/44.1 Vista will resample it to what you chose.

Exclusive : The sound you play is left untouched totally. It is therefore bit perfect, when the player denotes so.
As a result, it is up to the player software what can be output to the DAC. Vista doesn't help here. Thus, output 16 bits while the OffRamp doesn't accept that, no dice.

Now, the information from the Advanced tab can be used to determine what the device can do when in Exclusive Mode. It can do that just the same in Shared Mode, but in Shared Mode it will always use what the setting tells. In Exclusive Mode the player software can change when needed, and this is exactly what XXHighEnd does (not Foobar). So, when a 24/192 comes around, it sets the DAC to that, and when next a 16/44.1 is to play, it sets the DAC to that.

You could say all the fuzz can be avoided by using Shared mode, but the problem is that only that one manual setting is used all the time. So, there too different formats can be offered by the player (Engine#1 and Engine#2 just do that), but they are always resampled to the setting in the Advanced tab. Who wants that ? nobody.

All 'n all for you, Exclusive Mode may sound the best, but it is less convenient because at another format you must switch a couple of switches at the DAC.

I think it is clear now ?
And my advise of course is to just use Exclusive Mode and Engine#3, and always comprise a Playlist of the same format.


In XXHighEnd as how it is now, the "format" settings (like Double) are explicit means for technical (SQ) reasons;
In a future version there will be something like "always output like this (format)" which is more how Foobar works. Mind you, using this setting is *not* the best for sound quality, looks like what Vista does for Shared Mode, but avoids switching the switches for those who need to (you).
All 'n all the best is a DAC that is adaptive to automatic sample rate and bit depth changes. Without that you might get crazy from all the existing formats and the (proper) settings it takes at the DAC. Once you are more into hires you will find these the most common :

24/44.1 24/48 24/88.2 24/96 24/176.4 24/192

Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I checked the setting of the sound device & it is on exclusive; since the begining. By default it is on this setting.

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Haha, no, it doesn't work like that; What you found  (for those two checkboxes) is only about a. is the device allowed to be used in Exclusive Mode and b. is it allowed to abort other processes using the sound device when Exclusive Mode wants to use it.

It really is player (or the like) software which determines "Exclusive Mode ... NOW !". Only WASAPI (like Engine#3) can do that. Nothing else.

Ask ahead if it is not clear.
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I get it now. Thanks.

Arvind

[arvind]

Hi again Peter,

I have trial ordered the Empirical DAC (Overdrive). Now my connections would be Laptop to Off Ramp (via USB) to Empirical DAC (via I2S). The I2S input of the DAC accepts 24/192. How would I ensure that Vista does not interfere with the audio quality?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Use Engine#3. That's all.

[arvind]

Use Engine#3. That's all.

Hi Peter,

My audio files are 16/44.1 WAV. Setting on XX are DAC is 24/96/Bit Depth is 24/Upsample is ticked/Engine # 3 is used.

Vista is set on 24/96 (though it doesnt matter as I am using Engine #3)

On EMM DAC I switch to 2FS/48KHz.

With these settings XX is upsampling to 24/96 & feeding to the Off Ramp & EMM, which both like. But I am not getting any sound. Why is this?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hi there Arvind,

No ... with or without these settings (but with the DAC set to 24/96, end DAC Needs to 24 bits) XXHighEnd will output :

- 24/44.1 at "normal" (see below two settings);
- 24/88.2 when Double is ticked.
- 24/176.4 when Quattro is ticked.

So the EMM should be set at 2FS/44.1KHz. Then you should have sound ...

Let me know what happens.
Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

It works with DAC set on 2fs/44.1. Thanks.

Another question what is Q1/2/3/4/5? What should the setting be?

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Q Parameter Settings