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Author Topic: World's first NOS 24/384 filterless DAC  (Read 500559 times)
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« Reply #345 on: September 09, 2010, 12:39:52 am »

 yahoo yahoo yahoo

I wish I was living within driving distance from Peter too!

I know those Beatles tracks well. I have them in "all" versions, including 24bit/44k. They allways sounded grainy. I look forward to hear it the way you did! (I think TAS author Robert Harley was floored too, when he heard Get Back in the million dollar reference system of the owner of Magico in USA. Read about it in TAS a couple of years ago).
-What about the bass pipe in the end of Yellow Submarine. Did it really "shake the house"?
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« Reply #346 on: September 09, 2010, 05:36:55 am »

We only played it for two minutes or so, as the follow up on the remark of Gerard and Leon about those "separate" voices on Get Back. I had Yellow Submarine in mind as an even better example of that, so we played it briefly. I'll try it for myself later today (it's a bit eary now to shake the house (5:20 am) Happy).

Btw Pedal ...

Quote
They allways sounded grainy.

I let my wife listen to this one the morning before Geard and Leon arrived, just because I picked it as a funny first track to listen to and wanted to show it to her too. Her only remark (full amazement) : Huh ? I recall this is that grainy song ??

It is just the original from 196x and there is nothing grainy about it, as it is not with all the Beatles stuff. I think their repertoire is *the* example of how bad sounding old stuff isn't bad at all, but somehow our equipment can't deal with it very well. Actually this is with all material which seems over-emphasized in the highs, once you are able to squeeze out those highs. Later again, those highs appear to bring the refinement while ealier it looked the other way around. And deep deep down (I guess when the highs won't come out "yet") it's grainy ...

Peter
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« Reply #347 on: September 09, 2010, 03:17:53 pm »

Gerard, Leon, what a "report" !

Let me first thank you both for your honesty, and the excessive time it must have taken you to detail this all out. Especially the emphasis on the "bad stuff" is good; Nothing less than I would like when it's about the software, and of course a necessity to improve (upon).

So to start with this "bad stuff" ... yes, I am the first to "state" that no such thing like a DAC which is "good in" certain types of music should exist, but that day -to my own surprise- it happened that it was not the case. And indeed, only a matter of the volume control being in there (though not active at all) is enough to "destroy". That this can (audibly) happen to one type of music (that we found) is a most peculiar thing, but just the case (as I know and knew already). Anyway, although done off line already, apologizes that it happened like that, which of course wasn't inentional and I didn't know it myself.

More interesting for you both maybe, is the again "learning" what one can listen for, without even knowing the music itself. In this case -and as you briefly implied yourself in your report- I could hear in general that something was wrong, just by not knowing what I was listening to. Thus, in this case this was about the impossibility to hear whether there were violins or synths in the background; two things happen here : 1. it should be distinguishable in the first place (ok, with this DAC it would) and 2. there shouldn't even be attention to it. The latter like I said in my quoted response (similar) "I can't even listen anymore to violins or synths because now it's about the voice". So, no matter how impossible it may sound to everybody, this is just a measure, once you are over some hurdles. yes


That "strange" design ... Wel, for others, here it is :



It could have been "square" (as large) just the same, that middle compartment being somewhere in there. But actually this is about 5 different compartments, them being there to avoid radiating influences. The DAC itself is in the middle.

At this moment there is a connection at the left back (top) side which just is a mistake (it now takes unnecessary "sticking out" space at the back, as there are connections at the right outside side of the upper left leg. I must honesty say that I thought these wouldn't harm, but since Gerard mentioned that it could be an ugly "out sticking" thing in a nice stereo tower, it should go to the inner side somewhere. Not sure that can be done though.



Btw, quite unbelieveable, but I have this cabinet for over 6 weeks now, and it still changes. sorry !
Oh, of course this in an unpainted proto.

Quote
After these women, it was time for the other selections and this time the DAC never failed. Regardless whether we listened to the blues of John Lee Hooker, the by piano supported jazz of Diana Krall or the electronic of Yello it all came to us in rich details and very very well balanced. With wonderful placing of the instruments in the space and an extreme purity from the lowest low to the highest high.

It is not important at all, but I recall my own joy with the Diana Krall track, everybody being astouned about the power of her voice and seeing her literally singing with her head above the wing (piano), me not in the last place because I don't like her much. So why my joy ? Well, while everybody was happy with the result (I think this followed the bummer on the other two ladies) I *said* it was all nothing much, and nobody could understand. And, with a "wait, I'll let you hear some Ray Brown" and the following question "now, what was wrong with Krall there ?" the answer was unanimous : the wing. This time, however, it was about the poor quality (and for me a real disturbance) how indeed badly recorded the wing was, if compared with a better one. The essence though was (for all of us I think), that this is so clearly audible, and a virtue with that.
But as said, not important at all, and I just had a good time with it, so much saying in advance I don't like Krall, the next evening immediately playing full records of her; I said it before, I said it when you were there, and I keep on saying it : once things really work out, there isn't much music not to like. May it be Krall, Beatles and even house (what about the details Infected Mushroom spreads out. Oops).

Quote
Now we don’t know whether is was the Schumann Synchronizer  or just the way we normally would respond, but we tried to adjust our way of listening to all the tracks to the way Peter is obviously judging his own system.

Hmm ... This didn't quite come forward during the "session", but I feel this must be related to your remark afterwards "we should have been prepared better". Am I right ? Right or not, you both said that, so how would you prepare a next time ? Just curious ...

Quote
From what we heard throughout the day we are convinced this DAC is potentially one of the best and will upgrade the way we enjoy listening to music to a new level.

Thank you guys. I can't be sure whether you mean "we at our homes with a new DAC" or "the future of music";
I won't force you to say the latter, but it sure is what *I* am after, knowing it is just possible to outrageously outperform anything what exists at the moment. But it is so fragile ... I mean, no matter a cymbal at last sounds like a cymbal, there's also this strange dimension of "it has to work" which almost seems a contradiction. So, let's admit it : without any cymbal, and even with grainy stuff, music can still work, and may still draw tears. Also, I think we'll all agree that the latter may be even more important than the more technical thing like a cymbal sounding like a cymbal (no matter how very hard that is by itself). Both have to work, and the "working" thing is hard to control. Also hard to notice. That's why I always say that it takes 5 days to judge a change; it gives the opportunity to run into anomalies, may it be a cymbal not working with hiphop somehow, or an Emma Shapplin suddenly eating herself. So ok ... it's taking me long enough to make it 100% (to my own ideas), and while I know what that is, I still have to learn to change exactly *nothing* when an audition is coming up, no matter I think it will be unrelated. So that won't ever happen again.

One more thing to add, just because I feel it's importance :
Telstar too experienced the same "doesn't work" phenomenon. Of course this was 16 months ago, and with a version of the DAC which was totally "nothing" compared to what it is now. So, then too, this was about the "interest" of the technical thing (not heard in other DACs I know of) against the "does it daw tears" which is just in another leage, and btw also unrelated to foot tapping;
I guess it will be THE challenge for me, having Telstar over again in due time, with the advice of being prepared at saving some tears for this visit. In other words, at this moment I will leave it to him whether that now works out in full, knowing that not everybody has as many tears spare for a thing like this. So, Lisa Gerard and Emma Shapplin just were out of key because some technical failure, which is really in a different leage again from something which sounds normal to me, but would let another man cry ... or not because it just doesn't happen.
Telstar, you're welcome. And needed I guess. Happy

Peter



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« Reply #348 on: September 09, 2010, 03:34:49 pm »

I'm sorting out some issues at work here, but I'm coming soon for my final audition (you have a pm).
Then i'll quiet myself all the time needed for the 8ch version to be ready.
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« Reply #349 on: September 09, 2010, 03:59:55 pm »

Hey Gerard, thanks for the write up of your visit with Leon to Peter's place. I really appreciate the time you've taken to do this.

Mani.
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« Reply #350 on: September 09, 2010, 04:45:54 pm »

First Gerard and Leon, nice post you guys.

Peter,

Little bit strange casing, but the more you think about it, its a good design.
Shielding the various sections, proper room for interlinks (kinda like that).

Made in Holland

Roy
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« Reply #351 on: September 09, 2010, 05:05:42 pm »

Made in Holland

Yeah, nothing's perfect... right?

Mani.
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« Reply #352 on: September 09, 2010, 05:11:06 pm »

Hey Gerard, thanks for the write up of your visit with Leon to Peter's place. I really appreciate the time you've taken to do this.

Mani.

 thankyou It's been a pleasure for us. And than to think of  it's is only a 45 min drive to the place where it all happends!  yahoo

Lucky us!  Happy

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« Reply #353 on: September 09, 2010, 09:42:50 pm »

It is just the original from 196x and there is nothing grainy about it, as it is not with all the Beatles stuff. I think their repertoire is *the* example of how bad sounding old stuff isn't bad at all, but somehow our equipment can't deal with it very well. Actually this is with all material which seems over-emphasized in the highs, once you are able to squeeze out those highs. Later again, those highs appear to bring the refinement while ealier it looked the other way around. And deep deep down (I guess when the highs won't come out "yet") it's grainy ...
Practically ALL multitrack rock recordings from the 60s sounds somewhat grainy. That is, compared with "modern recordings" at least. The recording equipment wasnt much good. I've checked the technical data on those recorders and mixers, and it wasn't even "Hi-Fi" (DIN 45.500)... Also, 50 years old magnetic master tapes are starting to wear out.
Interestingly, jazz and blues (acoustic) recordings sounds better, even those from the late 50's. It's the minimalistic aproach of course. Think Rudy Van Gelder etc.

Lately I have purchaed a lot of hi-rez albums in 24/96 and 24/192. Some of them are transfers of old music. It's very fascinating listening, because I easily get lost into the music, enjoying the very good SQ. It's only AFTER, when switching to a modern recording that you realize all the wow and flutter, distortion and limited bandwidth. Funnily, going back to those old recordings after a few days, my hearing is reset and I enjoy them just as musch as I did the first time. Aural perception is certainly a mystery!

Sorry for the OT. To get back on track I would only add that when those old Beatles recording are decoded by the XX software/hardware brobably 2-3 coats of haze is removed and the squarewave impulses are restored. So they take on another level. As I said; I cant wait to hear it for myself!

BTW: All the Beatles records were done with the same old studio equipment (tube mixer and old tape recorders), except Abbey Road which had new "modern" solid state mixers and recorders. White album SQ stands out above the others, maybe because it is more acoustic, less edited. But Abbey Road is clearly the very best soundwise. It is also the only one which was mixed in stereo originally. On Abbey Road I feel that the grainyness is not present. It sounds quite transparent and clear, with deep bass and very good definition all over. The Beatles was "first" with doing just about everything in rock. The Abbey Road album might be characterized as the first audiophile rock recording, because they were the very first to use this brand new equipment inside Abbey Road Studios!

PS: After spending some many years developing your DAC I think you are entitled to shape it as you like. The H shape might be a good marketing gimic, too. Altough I would personally prefer the letter "P". Like in Pet(t)er...
;-)
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« Reply #354 on: September 10, 2010, 11:05:22 am »

yahoo yahoo yahoo

I wish I was living within driving distance from Peter too!

I know those Beatles tracks well. I have them in "all" versions, including 24bit/44k. They allways sounded grainy. I look forward to hear it the way you did! (I think TAS author Robert Harley was floored too, when he heard Get Back in the million dollar reference system of the owner of Magico in USA. Read about it in TAS a couple of years ago).
-What about the bass pipe in the end of Yellow Submarine. Did it really "shake the house"?

EDIT: It was Come Together, the opening track on Abbey Road. Here is a link to the TAS article. Worth a read.
Come Together is also featured on the recent LOVE soundtrack, available as DVD-A remastered in 24/96. I'll try it out tonight!
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« Reply #355 on: September 11, 2010, 05:08:28 am »

Quote
Peter: And indeed, only a matter of the volume control being in there (though not active at all) is enough to "destroy".

Peter

It looks like I will have take delivery of the "bare-bones" Phasure NOS1 DAC, rather than waiting for the 8-channel version (with extras), if I want the purest sound. Can't wait to hear what your local 'first-users' report back, when they take delivery (soon I hope).

Can you please remind me what physical PC output connection you are using to go from PC to 12s latency (as per your signature)?

Thanks

Frank
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« Reply #356 on: September 11, 2010, 08:52:16 am »

I'm guessing RJ45...
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« Reply #357 on: September 11, 2010, 11:12:26 am »

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Peter: And indeed, only a matter of the volume control being in there (though not active at all) is enough to "destroy".

It looks like I will have take delivery of the "bare-bones" Phasure NOS1 DAC, rather than waiting for the 8-channel version (with extras), if I want the purest sound.

Of course this is okay. But what I didn't tell yet (because still not 100% ready with it) is that I am now theoretically able to have a volume control in, which doesn't degrade sound for a bit. So :
I have had that working, while not any measureably degradation was there, as well as that it wasn't audible. However, this was with two mono-pots and a 0,0001ct resistor somewhere. So, I found exactly *one* stereo pot on the globe which could do the job (apart from two others, one mil spec and one med spec of over 300 euro), and together with it the cheap resistor was replaced by a 11 euro one (per channel). And now it doesn't work anymore. aggressive
Thus, theoretically solveable, but practically still not. Cry

This VC is, by now, of more importance than I ever thought of myself. So watch this, as a small explanation of a rather huge thinking error :

Long ago, I created the "lossless" digital volume in XXHighEnd; It anticipates on the headroom of 8 additional bits at playing 16/44.1 onto the 24/xx DAC. That works. Good.
Later, I developed Arc Prediction, and that too uses that available headroom. So, imagine that 2-step wave at 20KHz (that being a theoretical square (practical sawtooth) while a sine is intended), which is turned into an 8 times better "shape" which nicely looks like a sine again. This *needs* those bits ...

Do you see it coming ? yes, you do;
At using the digital attenuation the next thing which happens is that I "throw out" those bloodily created additional bits at Arc Prediction, with the result of AP not doing what it intended. That is, when I have to attenuate digitally 24dB (which is very normal for my modest 27dB gaining amps), I've thrown out 4 bits again ...

swoon

So, both the digital volume (as implemented within XXHighEnd) as AP are as good as they are, when each of them is used individually. But not both at the same time.

While this is as logic as can be, at least I never thought of this, but came to it automatically at observing that the VC which measures as good as without it, sounded BETTER. There's just more resolution, if only the digital volume isn't used (as much).

The stupid thing is, at measuring one wouldn't notice this, because this always happens at -0dBFS (no digital attenuation) because otherwise the noise floor comes closer and the figures get worse because only that (the same counts for measuring with a fair amount of analogue attenuation).

And so, in the far end we don't want to use a preamp because it degrades, we want Arc Prediction on 16/44.1 material because it improves so much, and we *have* to attenuate somehow ...
And this is already because our amps have different gain.

I won't say that the whole thing backfired on me (or us if you want), but it could be better for SQ again ... yes
Now it *needs* the VC, just as a means of good calibration and to "keep in" those 24 bits. That this implies that digital attenuation is no good after all is another matter, but no problem if the analogue attenuation is just there anyway.

Well, you could say that just because of giving myself another additional month (if not two), it again improved;
Now I have to turn the theoretically working situation into one which really works (forget about remote control please), and all should be done. It's all quite a lengthy job, because there's a nest of wireing needed here, and each other attempt needs to resolder it all. When I'm done I'll let you know. Happy

Quote
connection you are using to go from PC to 12s latency (as per your signature)?

Frank, that shouldn't read "12 seconds of latancy" or whatever you made of it, but i2s (i-square-s) which is the protocol used. You'll need nothing, because what's needed will be in the box. I'm trying to keep this in the blue as long as I can. sorry

Peter

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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #358 on: September 11, 2010, 12:09:11 pm »

So, both the digital volume (as implemented within XXHighEnd) as AP are as good as they are, when each of them is used individually. But not both at the same time.

Aaaahhhh. This might explain what I've been struggling with recently.

When AP was first released, I was an immediate fan. I loved it. But recently, I've become a little more 'critical' of it, both here and on CA. It's virtues are irrefutable IMO, but the sound hasn't seemed quite right. So much so that I've reverted back to playing 16/44.1 tracks natively. BUT... a few months ago, I started using the XX vol control for critical listening (DAC connected directly to power amp) due in most part to Peter's insistence that all preamps corrupt (which I do believe, BTW). Maybe this is the reason why I've gone 'off' AP...

Even though I have a reasonably good preamp (Pass X1), I would very much appreciate a physical vol control on the NOS1.

One final thought. Most of us are setting DAC to 32 bits. Would XX's vol control still be throwing out the 'good' bits created by AP?

Mani.
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Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
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« Reply #359 on: September 11, 2010, 12:16:56 pm »

Quote
Peter: And indeed, only a matter of the volume control being in there (though not active at all) is enough to "destroy".

It looks like I will have take delivery of the "bare-bones" Phasure NOS1 DAC, rather than waiting for the 8-channel version (with extras), if I want the purest sound.

Hi Peter,

as a music lover and willing to invest a lot of money I'm looking for components on the market, which are superior in SQ to what is offered now.
Everything what will degrade the SQ shall be eliminated in the signal path. This was your intention from the beginning too.


My proposal is:
you will manuf.
1) a "Highend" DAC with the main target for the best SQ possible (no volume control).
2) a" Lowfi" DAC with a volume control, headphone connection, additional subwoofer output, 8 channel outputs etc. whatever the customer wishes.

In my system the XXHighend PC (no notebook) is installed for music replay only, and there is no problem (slow reaction) with the volume control.

best

Joachim
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