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Author Topic: USB to PC chassis ground ? (noise) - The biggest change ever !  (Read 259219 times)
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AlainGr
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« Reply #225 on: January 28, 2014, 10:45:01 pm »

Peter, I´d say that with both sides isolated there is a similar hum as when both sides are non isolated. So, more hum than when only the card is isolated.

Now I have a different problem, lately I´ve been using the NOS1 RCA outputs but today I wanted to test some XLR cables and when I plugged the cables in the XLR NOS1 inputs the meters were reading 0.00mv. This happens with both sides isolated and it was n´t happening in the other cases, with only the card isolated or with none of them isolated.

Regards,
Juan
Hi Juan,

0.00mv ? Isn't that the Nirvana that we are all looking for ? Happy

Alain
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« Reply #226 on: January 28, 2014, 10:54:04 pm »

And there is the matter of the right channel tilt. This is less noticeable in the midrange, but bass heavy instruments are constantly more to the right.

PS: Not disputing what you hear, but bass instruments usually ARE placed to the right. (Of course there are many exceptions, depending also on the genre). 

Hi Pedal

This is of course true. Naturally I am referring to bass heavy instruments that I expect to be in the centre. Like a soloist's cello or practically most pop and jazz Rhythm sections.

Maybe it has always been a little on the right side but I did not notice because of the swollen sound images. OTOH I hear it typically with 1.168 so it could be an unintended feature (bug/side effect) of this version.

regards, Coen
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #227 on: January 28, 2014, 11:11:32 pm »

Peter, I´d say that with both sides isolated there is a similar hum as when both sides are non isolated. So, more hum than when only the card is isolated.

Now I have a different problem, lately I´ve been using the NOS1 RCA outputs but today I wanted to test some XLR cables and when I plugged the cables in the XLR NOS1 inputs the meters were reading 0.00mv. This happens with both sides isolated and it was n´t happening in the other cases, with only the card isolated or with none of them isolated.

Regards,
Juan
Hi Juan,

0.00mv ? Isn't that the Nirvana that we are all looking for ? Happy

Alain

What a fool I am!, seeing 0.00mv I don´t tried it. It works perfectly, the measures really are 0.00mv and 0.01mv, very well matched indeed. Before I always had -8.5mv and -10.5mv.

Thanks Alain!

Juan
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Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #228 on: January 29, 2014, 12:51:28 am »

Hi Juan,

There is almost no DC offset at all and this surprises me (in a good sense) Happy

By the way, do you hear the sound a little tilted to the right ? Well maybe not all of the songs, but as a general tendency ?

Alain

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Stanray
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« Reply #229 on: January 29, 2014, 12:53:49 am »

Ok sound quality changes.

Now with the NOS1 side also disconnected, focus returns, and how! So much so that many 'background' details suddenly become clearly audible. I also hear far more into the sound ('depth' if you will) scape.
Loudspeakers have disappeared. Like Vollenweiders harp playing full power in the room. Another example is the brush that is used on drums on the Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album. You can now clearly hear it rotating over the drum's skin while the other (loud) instruments play their respective parts. There is a lot more nuance to be heard in the playing of the instruments. I almost envisioned them moving wrt the microphone. On that same album the piano has the kind of sound I recognize from the LP, rich playful and drowned in its own reverb.
Depending on the album the music stays between the speakers or moves out of them. In any case there is a natural lightness that I recognize from live performances.

So far I have not heard ill defined or sharp highs. The low end is just there like it fits, but it is not very prominent. Yet I have to start tuning the settings. They were just semi-random that was from my experiments with re-grounding the USB cards brackets.

And there is the matter of the right channel tilt. This is less noticeable in the midrange, but bass heavy instruments are constantly more to the right.

regards, Coen

Tonight I disconnected and isolated the usb grnd wire in the NOS1 and made a plastic bracket for the Silverstone USB-card.

To make a long story short: I now have the best SQ so far and concur with Coen's observations above.

With two exceptions.
First, I use Windows 8 and this sounds great, although I can't compare it with Windows 7.

Second, the sound stage now is symmetrical, whereas before it was shifted to the left somewhat (this was annoying). Because of the symmetry the sound stage is deeper and better focused.

Wow!   very happy

Stanley
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September 2021: Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM/ XXHE 2.11 / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/1 / Q1Factor = 4/ Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 10ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 10.13 (max 10,13)/ No Filter/ not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Peak Extend Off /Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback/ UnAttended / All Services Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : 62, 1, -, 1, 1/ Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = On / Custom Filtering Low (16x) / -> Lush^3 USB-cable 70cm (A: W-Y-R-G, B: W-G) > Phasure NOS1a 75B G3 DAC, Driver v1.0.4) (16ms)/ Output via Balanced Blaxius BNC Interlinks > Audio Analogue Maestro monoblock amplifier > speakers: Apogee Acoustics Scintilla (custom rebuild).
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« Reply #230 on: January 29, 2014, 01:16:45 am »

Hi Juan,

There is almost no DC offset at all and this surprises me (in a good sense) Happy

By the way, do you hear the sound a little tilted to the right ? Well maybe not all of the songs, but as a general tendency ?

Alain



Hi Alain,

The values are totally firm in -0.00 and -0.01 and that seems strange to me because usually the values have some small fluctuations. Let´s see what Peter says.

So far I don´t hear the sound tilted to one side or the other, before, with the card isolated, I had the voices tilted toward the left side. I subscribe totally the last post from Stanley as I also use W8 and haven´t tested W7 since we started with W8. Very good SQ with the the sound image correctly placed.
Some hum though (Peter asked about it) perceived only when I touch with my ear the front of the speaker but nothing annoying and totally imperceptible from a couple of feet away and of course when listening music. The speakers I´m using now, Rogers ls3/5a, are not very sensitive anyway (Sensitivity: 82dB/W/m. Nominal impedance: 15 ohms).

Juan
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Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #231 on: January 29, 2014, 08:31:01 am »


Tonight I disconnected and isolated the usb grnd wire in the NOS1 and made a plastic bracket for the Silverstone USB-card.

To make a long story short: I now have the best SQ so far and concur with Coen's observations above.

With two exceptions.
First, I use Windows 8 and this sounds great, although I can't compare it with Windows 7.

Second, the sound stage now is symmetrical, whereas before it was shifted to the left somewhat (this was annoying). Because of the symmetry the sound stage is deeper and better focused.

Wow!   very happy

Stanley

Good for you Stanley!

If I read this well the sound stage did shift to the right Wink!

Regards, Coen

P.s. And for Juan of course who experienced about the same!
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #232 on: January 29, 2014, 09:14:32 am »

Hi Coen, the feeling I had was that the voice was moving to the left (with the card insulated). Now with both sides of the USB isolated the voice is perfectly centered. Everything is correctly placed. As I said I only tested it with W8.

Regards,
Juan
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Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #233 on: January 29, 2014, 09:49:01 am »

Peter, yesterday I changed the interconnection cables from RCA to XLR and while with the RCA the DC offset was -8.50mv and -10.50mv when I changed the cables (with the NOS1 On) the meters suddenly went to -0.00mv and -0.01. I tried it some times more from the NOS1 Off with all the cables disconnected until I got the usual -8.50mv and -10.50mv but any time when I connected the XLR cables the metters went to those 0.00mv. The sound was great but as that change in the DC offset values never happened before and as the meters were absolutely firm with not fluctuations at all I thought that something was wrong and after a while I turned Off the NOS1 just in case. I don´t know if it could have something to do with the USB isolation in any or both sides. Before returning to the situation prior to the isolation I would like to know your opinion.

Best regards,
Juan
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Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #234 on: January 29, 2014, 12:15:00 pm »

Juan,

You are just shortcutting the sense pins with your XLR->RCA cable (bet ? haha).

What I'm not sure about is whether Alain now also suddenly has 0.00 values. If *that* is so, something else is going on.
My values are not 0.00 anyway, but I use RCA ...

Still, at reading through the last posts I now start to wonder whether what we hear (I not) (shifting to the left or right) comes from minuscule DC offset ...

Peter
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« Reply #235 on: January 29, 2014, 12:25:53 pm »

Juan,

You are just shortcutting the sense pins with your XLR->RCA cable (bet ? haha).

What I'm not sure about is whether Alain now also suddenly has 0.00 values. If *that* is so, something else is going on.
My values are not 0.00 anyway, but I use RCA ...

Still, at reading through the last posts I now start to wonder whether what we hear (I not) (shifting to the left or right) comes from minuscule DC offset ...

Peter

Shorcutting? that sounds bad, do you mean that something is broken? In such a case what should I do?

As far as I know Alain only commented about my 0.00 values not about his own.

The shifting to the left, in my case, was before I got the 0.00 values. It happened with my usual -8.50mv and -10.50mv

Best regards,
Juan
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Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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« Reply #236 on: January 29, 2014, 01:35:05 pm »

No no, not bad in this case, but for SQ it may matter somewhat.

XLR is plus/minus and ground. When you use a converter cable from XLR to RCA that cable will connect plus to ground (or minus to ground - never mind). And the ones connected ("shortcutted") are exactly the ones used for measuring DC Offset, which is the other pair of the signal when RCA is used; that is why sound just works while offset reads 0.00.

I hope it it is clear and also that I assume that you indeed convert from XLR to RCA - which should be true ...

Peter
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« Reply #237 on: January 29, 2014, 01:43:09 pm »

No no, not bad in this case, but for SQ it may matter somewhat.

XLR is plus/minus and ground. When you use a converter cable from XLR to RCA that cable will connect plus to ground (or minus to ground - never mind). And the ones connected ("shortcutted") are exactly the ones used for measuring DC Offset, which is the other pair of the signal when RCA is used; that is why sound just works while offset reads 0.00.

I hope it it is clear and also that I assume that you indeed convert from XLR to RCA - which should be true ...

Peter

Thanks Peter, now I understand it. I convert XLR to RCA in the amplifier input with an adapter

Juan
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« Reply #238 on: January 29, 2014, 02:13:24 pm »

I don't check the DC offset on a regular basis... All I can say is that the values were ok the last time, but I also use RCA ICs for the moment. I will have to check this later (again...) but I did not know that you were converting the XLR > RCA Juan ? This is were I go into unknown territories...

Regards,

Alain
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« Reply #239 on: January 29, 2014, 02:33:44 pm »

I don't check the DC offset on a regular basis... All I can say is that the values were ok the last time, but I also use RCA ICs for the moment. I will have to check this later (again...) but I did not know that you were converting the XLR > RCA Juan ? This is were I go into unknown territories...

Regards,

Alain

Hi Alain,

That´s because I wanted to test one XLR cable that I have and the amp that I´m using now has only RCA inputs.

Regards,
Juan
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Audio Pc: Processor i7 970: 3200MHz (reduced to 1668MHz), 6+6 cores/ RAM Corsair DDR3, 24Gb, 1333MHz/ Mb Asus X58 Sabertooth/ OS and XXHE in Peter's RAM-Disk / The CPU fan is the only one in the Audio Pc: NF-S12A (600rpm/6.7db)/ No graphic card/ Power supply: Seasonic SS-400FL2, fanless.

Configuration and Updates in HOW I'VE BUILT MY NEW PC...http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1673.0. This post is very old but maybe someone still find it useful

XXHighEnd: 2.11a. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN/ KS:Phasure NOS1 Out 4.0/ #4 Engine/ Adaptive Mode/ Q1=10, Q3,4,5=1, xQ1=15/ Dev.Buffer: 4096/ ClockRes: 15ms/ Straight Contiguous/ SFS: 0.69 (max 0,69)/ Not Invert/ Phase Alignment Off/ Allow format change/ Decode HDCD/ Playerprio: Low/ ThreadPrio: Real Time/ Scheme: Core 3-5/ UnAttended/ Not Switch during Playback Off/ Playback Drive none/ UnAttended/ Include Garbage Collect/ Copy to XX Drive by standard/ Always clear Proxy before Playback/ Stop Desktop Services/ Stop Remaining Services/ Stop All Services: Off/ Keep LAN Services: On - Persist: Off/ Use Remote Desktop/ Minimize OS/ XTweaks : Balanced Load 35/ Nervous Rate 10/ Cool when Idle -/ Provide Stable Power 0/ Utilize Cores always 1/ Time Performance Index: Optimal / Time Stability: Stable / Arc Prediction/ Number of cores in use: 12 (máx. 6-12)

Music Server PC (W10) totally silent with OS (W10) in SSD and music inside in SSDs - RDC > Ethernet Gigabyte cable 3m > Audio Pc > 1m USB Lush cable directly from the USB3.0 in the motherboard > PHASURE NOS1a-75B-G3 (Driver v1.0.4) 16ms > Blaxius BNC interconnects > Genelec 1037B 3-Way Active speakers with BNC inputs
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