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Author Topic: World's first NOS 24/384 filterless DAC  (Read 489973 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2009, 03:45:07 pm »

Quote
Maybe its me, but I LIKE the sweetness you mention.

You seem to refer to something that someone (probably I) mentioned as a negative ? or ?
I most certainly did not intend to ...
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2009, 11:00:23 am »

why don´t you move into one of these!:

Found this one 500 meters from my house (this is really true). I could move to there of course, but first I'll investigate getting a cable from here to there.
Happy

This one's 150th birthday was celebrated some three months ago. Must have real ancient power.


* molen.JPG (234.26 KB, 533x800 - viewed 3697 times.)
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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leifchristensen
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« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2009, 08:32:50 pm »

I just thought it´s a great way to solve your polluted power system,by generating your own in-house clean power
best
Leif
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ASUS P5K-E/Intelquad6600/8gbkingston6400ram/SUPERTALENT ULTRA SSD 64GB systemdisk+4x500wdmusicdiscs/vista ultimate64bit/XXplayer ver.0.9z-2/AP QUAD q4(15/15/0/0)/player priolow/threadpriorealtime+4x,John Kenny modified/batterypowered clocks HiFace,  Twisted Pear Buffalo II reference dac and Avantgarde Trio custom  active basstowers (4xBD-15channel)powered by dual BD-30 amps,eq´ed by Rod Elliot P-84 and passively crossed over@130hZ with custom 24db/oct. passive line lvlv filter by Phil Marchand  and diy cost no object 6c45-IT-300Bamps(Borderpatrol based)+ a SOLID phono setup
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« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2009, 04:07:30 pm »

With my ever planned 32/384 DAC I planned a special connection to the PC which has never been done before. That is, not that I know of, and there isn't any reason for it also with other manufacturers;
Then, in this topic I expressed about wanting a general I2S connection. This I2S connection should work for PC's just the same. And as you may know, it is (AFAIK) the most jitter free connection;
I tried this with Firewire as the first carrier, but this is a dead end. I just can't find any Firewire boards with manufacturers that want to sell something, or otherwise the drivers s*ck and access to the SDKs etc. is (too) difficult.
So now I combined my old plan with this new DAC ...

The good news is : I have it working. Thus, no SPDIF, no USB, no Firewire/ADAT or something, but native I2S with a "secret" connection to the PC.
The bad news is : the stupid DAC board only accepts I2S when in Oversampling mode ...

So, after all the hard work it now appears that I2S cannot be used in NOS mode. Yuk.
And "sadly" the nature of the I2S connection indeed sounds better than SPDIF, and it just gives the sweetness I talked about in the above. I know, comparing is a bit of apples and oranges, but since SPDIF can be used in OS mode just the same, this difference in the nature of the sound is very clear.

ah-ha!

I knew that you sometime would have made my same reasoning and trying to get i2s directly from the computer.
That is the best single cable solution. The other best is dual ST, bu too cumbersome to be done with a computer source.

Your last email confused me Wink
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(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |

Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless |  8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
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« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2009, 05:33:51 pm »

Quote
I knew that you sometime

Sometime ? hehe, I think it is in the first post of this topic, and planned long before that !

But just 10 minutes ago the theoretical solution for I2S in NOS mode was found. Practical takes a few days more.
Will keep you informed. Happy
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2009, 04:40:22 am »

Quote
Sometime ? hehe, I think it is in the first post of this topic, and planned long before that !

scratching Ah ... I now think you meant without Firewire ...
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2009, 05:43:39 am »

Peter.  With direct I2S coming off the computer... is there a worry about electrical grunge riding along into the dac?  We know there's more to the transport/dac link influencing sound than just jitter... any way to isolate the two better?  any small optical thingamajig right before/after the I2S... obviously I don't know techno, but just throwing it out there.
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0.9z-8-3a WAV/CUE files on HDDs via MB FW400>; Win7 pro ttp://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=352.msg4021#msg4021); [XXHighEnd player  Qs 7, 0, 0, 0, 0; eng 4; adaptive; scheme#3; player priority low; thread priority realtime; clock res 5ms: SFS 420 Wink dac is 24/192 w/32bits; Play Unattended; Stop Services ticked; Wallpaper & Show Back ticked - Mirror Image unticked; Start Engine unticked;garbage collect ticked; copy files to XX-drive; *quad arc prediction upsampling*: straight contiguous:>PCI FW800 card>Fireface 800 DAC [latency 2048 samples for 176.4]; usb/ethernet/mb audio shut off @ MB
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« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2009, 09:52:28 am »

Yeah some photocoupler like AVM used in one of they're CD players, they lid the whole thing up in a red shine, nice.
Good idea.
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PlexWriter Premium 2 (FireWire enclosure) -> Fujitsu Siemens AMILO M3438, Win7 32Bit, XX [Engine#4 double, Threadprio = high / Playerprio = below normal / V = -33 / Q1 = 6 / Scheme2] -> M-Audio ProFire 610 [buffer 64, bypassed volume control]  -> balanced β22 headphone power amplifier -> Sennheiser HD650  / Grado RS1i
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« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2009, 01:58:03 pm »

I know Doede Douma is very peculiar about keeping I2S cabling from his spdif and usb pcb to dac pcb´s as short as possible,probably due to risk of interference
best
Leif
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ASUS P5K-E/Intelquad6600/8gbkingston6400ram/SUPERTALENT ULTRA SSD 64GB systemdisk+4x500wdmusicdiscs/vista ultimate64bit/XXplayer ver.0.9z-2/AP QUAD q4(15/15/0/0)/player priolow/threadpriorealtime+4x,John Kenny modified/batterypowered clocks HiFace,  Twisted Pear Buffalo II reference dac and Avantgarde Trio custom  active basstowers (4xBD-15channel)powered by dual BD-30 amps,eq´ed by Rod Elliot P-84 and passively crossed over@130hZ with custom 24db/oct. passive line lvlv filter by Phil Marchand  and diy cost no object 6c45-IT-300Bamps(Borderpatrol based)+ a SOLID phono setup
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« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2009, 12:32:30 pm »

Quote
Sometime ? hehe, I think it is in the first post of this topic, and planned long before that !

scratching Ah ... I now think you meant without Firewire ...

Yep Happy

and i'm waiting for that email Happy))
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(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |

Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless |  8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
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« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2009, 11:50:24 am »

Maybe this will sound "commercial", maybe it is just good to know for people in search for a DAC and bump into this ... but here is another kind of "review".

Spread over two days, a session of 15 hours was spent on a comparison between a DAC based on the ESS Sabre, and my own Phasure NOS1.

The ESS Sabre based DAC this time makes use of the original Evaluation Board, though modded to a high(est ?) degree. The bass output therefore (?) is better compared to the Buffalo DAC. Sound character otherwise was the same, to my ears.

The NOS1 was used with SPDIF connection only for more honest comparison, and it was used in NOS mode as well as in OS mode, and either with and without filter.

Software was XXHighEnd, and only 16/44.1 files were used in a normal fashion (not upsampled or anything).

A kind of interesting twist was that various persons came with different presumptions :

a. The owner of the ESS Sabre DAC being there right from the start of the Sabre, working on it in a fashion of creating the best DAC existing. This is visitor A.
b. Visitor B looking for the best DAC in the world (maybe not regardless price Happy) in a most serious fashion I would dedicate to myself only.
c. Me, indeed looking for the best as well, and with a search behind me similar to visitor B, and means similar to vistor A (DIY).
d. Some person D without real interests, apart from the ability to bear the noises day in day out, my wife.

Important to know is that we did not use any music for testing that would put the NOS DAC in the advantage explicitly. In other words, only candle light music was used, much piano, and some toucher of classical here and there.
For those not knowing "my" merits on this one : nothing "square like" music, hence nothing the NOS DAC would do better because of that (remaining squares as they are).

The reason for this kind of music actually was visitor B; He already knew the DAC from visitor A, recognized the virtues, but without being able to describe it, felt "something was missing". You could say that it was the stupid idea to possibly find the missing parts in my own DAC, which is a highly pretentious idea to start with, nobody knowing in advance what would come out. On this matter, I did not know the visitors besides some dozens of emails, and about the seriousness ... they came by airplane.


To get used to my system and how it sounds, we started with the Sabre for some 90 minutes. Where I was behaving the most objective, visitor A got used to his own DAC again, while visitor B again came to the conclusion that technically everything sounded well, but something was missing.
At that stage I knew what that was, but said nothing.

In those cases where objectivity was not needed, I certainly spoke up;
On a side note, I did not know any of the music we listened to.

At one stage, I asked visitor A what instrument was playing. If you followed this topic, I of course internally referred to my notification of the Sabre (in Buffalo appearance) did not do that, and here it was the same. The innocent answer of visitor A was "trumpet. ehh, sax. ehh no ... ?".
Of course this was a kind of mean from me, but was nevertheless related to possibly "something missing", where I experienced that myself and did not recognize it immediately. For the visitors of course this was more difficult because of a lacking reference.

Already at this stage of listening to the Sabre only, I recognized the most strange violins, which were indeed so strange to my ears, that I later (at trying the same track on the NOS1) promised a recognizeable synthesizer at hopping over to the NOS1.

It was really a pure coincidence that my "promise" turned out the most untrue; Instead of a synthesizer a normal violin came out.
Well, with this as the very first thing happening, nobody was really objective anymore, because a violing sounding as an unrecognizeable thing can't be standed. Not once you have the reference. I was ok with it before when the instrument sounded like a combination of a violin with a handsaw and a bag pipe. Of course, the latter was placeboed by the Keltish music (which it was), but still. So, if you hear this back as a normal violin, your brains won't allow to like the non-violin DAC better, no matter for what other reason.
Btw, of course this is similar to what I told a few posts back about Little Feat and the strange noise which just appeared to be a guitar.

In an earlier stage we where kind of always talking about the realism of the music. Somehow it never sounded right, although I must admit we were nitpicks to a high degree. I am not sure whether visitor A would really come up which such messages, but he sure agreed once things were pointed out.
Person D could point out that all was too fuzzy, which was independant of my own stating that things "buzzed" too much. So, I myself recognized the uneven notes on a piano, but since this appeared to be throughout the spectrum, it kind of annoyed throughout. Or at least with my that was so, and apparantly with person D the same. But remember, we (me and D) had a reference.

At a certain stage we at last found a beautiful piano piece of which we could all agree that the Sabre was performing very well on it. So, to be as honest and open as possible, it was my idea to switch the cables for the first time. And to make it a bit pretentious from my side, I had a prediction as detailed as possible on how that piano would change. Remember, that piano (a large wing) that was sounding 100% good to begin with.
I predicted a zillion additional harmonics, a more fresh piano (it sounded late late late night dull), hammers to be heard (they did not at all), and interhamonic "reverbaration", which I later explained by pionting out the 3 strings forming 1 tone on the higher piano notes.

As you have guessed, of course this came out exactly. What I could not have guessed though, is that those harmonics are so much of importance, that the highest notes appeared an octave higher. I never knew that (but never made such extensive comparisons in this area of good music), but at the highest notes the "base tone" seems to be created from harmonics only. They are louder than the actual base tone. In the end I know because I have a wing myself, but it never occurred to me really.

Right. So the nice thing happening (nice for comparing in general) was that while nobody lacked anything on that piano piece, everyone agreed within one second that it was *totally* different. And better. And real.

We were switching a lot, and at some stage a request of visitor B came for a certain track we listened to before over the Sabre, and first we listened to the Sabre again. So, this was the second time;
Try to imagine, me hopping around with cables, your wish is my command at the volumes and everything (all perceivement had to be of a volume as the gentlemen were used to), and as a nice dog I listened again to this track.
Now the track had to be run on the NOS1, and after forfilling my job again, of course the waiting came to listen out that stupid track once more. Life is hard sometimes.
But wait a minute, this time I got something from it, and it sucked me in. With the danger of person D seeing it, I had to wipe my eyes. I saw person B doing the same, and person A had dropped is head down on the bar he was behind. No idea what that meant, but he didn't do it before.

Well, anyway visitor B was done with it. He now knew what he had been missing on the Sabre DAC. Emotion.
I too was confronted with that again (a kind of a hard way to do it), and in the end this too is just the same as what I said before : the ESS Sabre sings like a dead bird. It just is so. No matter all the detail, too many things are - or go wrong at heavy oversampling.


Since everybody now was able to watch out for differences and where they could be, we found many more tracks, particular in the classical regions, where things just did not work at all. I can tell (we all could) that the recordings were the best existing, but on the Sabre violins easily became a flute. Yes, I'm serious. A flute.

Visitor A came to the conclusion that something must be wrong with his DAC. He did not recognize these "errors" from his home. But what visitor A probably forgets is that
a. I asked him before about what instrument he heard through is DAC, with the just innocent answer "don't know", but with the flair of "who actually cares, as long as I like it !"
b. He did not have the reference before.
Besides that I just recognized the Sabre sound.

A little less relevant for the whole exhercition, was that I let the two visitors decide in what mode the NOS1 sounded best to their ears. Or actually is was visitor B wanting to find out, with the notion that visitor B is not NOS minded at all. He knew how I think about that, but never found it relevant for his choice of a DAC. Also visitor B has good theories (confirmed by, say, the books) that oversampling to a certain extend is good.
The unanimous result was NOS/Filterless. No matter I told filterless is wrong and measures wrong, no matter I told I played with filter for the last couple of weeks, filterless came out of it. And indeed, if your measure "the right" things, that may come out of measuring just the same.

As an anecdote, I come near the end with this :

Visitor A, who told that he had some nice hours of good sleep (Happy) woke up with the solution;
His DAC received a 50 Ohm internal SPDIF cable at some last mod, and this really should be 75 Ohms. So, let's change that cable !
We did, and it did not make a difference. Then of course what visitor A did not know, is that I myself have an internal 50 Ohms cable. biglol
Indeed wrong of course, but to my ears that 25 or so cm did not make an audible difference with a 75 Ohms coax, and at this moment I don't own a 75 Ohm very flexible cable which really needs to be flexible at pulling off the cover and the PCB where the SPDIF is connected to is mounted on the cover.
Anyway, I told visitor A to forget about the reference he now has, and most probably back at home things will be allright again. His fine tube amp may mask the anomalies my amps reveil, and I really hope this is just so (for him).

On a last note, and a kind of relevant to not only myself, but also to you listening to my brabbling about "my fine system with the best sound in the world and blahblahblah", I really worship the ears and the paying of attention to everything of vistor B. Not that vistor A is less on this, but visitor B is the critical complaining and "nagging" user. Only the best will do for him;
He told me that in my system he heard one of the best systems he ever heard, but not "the" best. Well, that is enough compliment for me, and I must say that I wasn't all that confident in advance. Remember, I know visitor B as searching for a DAC and all for many years, which may not exactly be avarage. If you are so much into things, you know you merits, and for me this was a kind of scary.

Dear visitors, thank you for a great experience on my side and lending your ears. I'm sure at some stage you will be reading this, and maybe you want to add something, or disagree with things I just said. Don't hesitate to jump in in that case, or do not if you just don't like to  write something here. A small hint for visitor B might be to create another nickname just because of this. In the case you don't want to show who you really are on the internet. Do as you please.

Thanks you both,
Peter
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2009, 04:47:46 pm »

As someone may have guessed, I am visitor B.

First of all, I want to thank again Peter for the hospitality and for giving me the chance to do an important A/B comparison of DACs.

If "cost no object", I would have already shed a few dozens of thousands euros to get a system alike my reference. Instead my goal is to get a reference-grade sound at a fraction of that cost. No bullsh*t. I know that it can be done. But I had to enter the diy world.

Everybody has its own parameters, so I will never say that what I like has to be agreed by everyone, though it makes me happy when is the case. My friend, visitor "A", happens to agree with my ears most of the times. I was glad to hear things similarly from Peter, whose ears -I guessed and I know now- can be trusted.
I'm not posting my comments online anywhere but here, although I will express all my thoughts privately to people worthy of my esteem.
I dont see the reason to bash the ESS Sabre, especially in the DIY community, and I have no commercial interest whatsoever, unlike Peter, (whom i believe to be motivated by the reach of good sound, rather than money) Happy .

My approach in the evaluation stage is to listen just anything, without knowing what's inside and which is the pricetag. This helps avoiding the placebo effect (to which I think to be quite resistant). So, when I auditioned the system which then became my reference, I didnt know exactly what parts were in the audio gear.

I think that more or less, the evaluation stage is finished for me, at least regarding the source. I believe to have made the right choice about the speakers and the amplification, but it is too soon to tell.
I will also not comment in detail about my impression of Peter system, I can confirm what he already wrote here, that is, his system is "one of the best that I have ever heard, but not the best". It has one special merit, it is utterly transparent, and i expected that considering the speakers alone, and I wasnt disappointed. This is very helpful in doing a comparison of a single component.
I haven't auditioned hundreds of systems, only a few dozens, but I think to have acquired a decent knowledge.

During the past auditions, I have found to like, more or less, sources based on the pcm1704 converters. I wrongly assumed that my reference cd player employed the older 16-bit tda1541a DACs, and that's what I told Peter. But I was wrong. I did a quick search yesterday and found out that it does instead use 4x 1704, in NOS mode.
The family sound of these DACs is characterized by realistic timbre of instruments, PRAT, and lack of high-frequency distortions*.
Being multibit mono chips, they require an extreme care in the design and implementation of ALL other circuits around. This is not often found in commercial products. A single opamp in the output stage would compromise irreparably the purity of the sound, while an undersized psu would make the bass muddy.

The NOS1**  built by Peter comes quite close to my reference. His system as a whole, though, failed to give me complete emotional involvement. I felt like i was in front of a concert hall, looking through a window, instead of being inside. Still, it was pleasant to listen and I wanted to enjoy the music of my favourite discs for longer.

---
*   for lack of a better word. In worse systems this is the mark of a digital sound, metallic, unpleasant and that cannot be stand for long. In better systems, like it was in the case of the Sabre in Peter chain, it is just some annoyance with high tones and desire to tune the volume down. This is the effect that my ears receive typically when there is a sigma-delta DAC in the chain. I dont know why, but it is so.

** configured NOS and filterless, with spdif input provided by the fireface
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« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2009, 06:34:07 pm »

...I did not know the visitors besides some dozens of emails, and about the seriousness ... they came by airplane.
Poor guy. He flew in with his DAC just to learn that it transformed violins into flutes.

Quote
...the ESS Sabre sings like a dead bird. It just is so. No matter all the detail, too many things are - or go wrong at heavy oversampling...the recordings were the best existing, but on the Sabre violins easily became a flute. Yes, I'm serious. A flute.

LMC has a ESS Sabre based DAC, and he has reported that he is very happy with the sound. I doubt he would say so if it made violins into flutes! (Eventually, if so, I will tease him for the rest of my life. He-he). Are you sure that the DAC of "Visitor A" is not faulty? After all, it's a DIY kit. Probably many places where you can go wrong when putting the parts together.

I was about to order a ESS Sabre kit myself. But know I'll put it on hold. Do you have any release date for your Phasure NOS1 DAC?

------------

BTW: Previously I had a DIY DDDAC with 5 towers (60 pcs) of stacked Philips TDA1543 dac chips, without oversampling (NOS) and no filtering (Filterless). It was build without compromise, including the most expensive CERAFINE and BG capacitors, etc. It was truly an extremly dynamic and "live" sounding DAC. It made most other DACs sound like dead byrds. BUT it also turned violins into synthezisers. It was great on trio 60s-jazz and rock, but not resolved enough for massed strings or choral music. It homogenized crashing cymbals too. I don't know if these artifacts are due to the poor performance of the Philips 1543 (it's a cheap economical DAC chip from 1991...), or because of the heavy figures of folded-down IM distortion because of Filterless operation.

After reading your listening evaluation I am even more confused, because you say that your NOS/Filterless DAC is the real deal, while the ESS Sabre makes violins sound like flutes. -This is contrary to my experience.


PS: Fortunately, in the mean time, I am happy with the Eximus CD/DAC-10. The DAC inside is really a great product. So I have very good SQ while waiting for "the next big thing".

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« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2009, 08:31:22 pm »

BTW: Previously I had a DIY DDDAC with 5 towers (60 pcs) of stacked Philips TDA1543 dac chips, without oversampling (NOS) and no filtering (Filterless). It was build without compromise, including the most expensive CERAFINE and BG capacitors, etc. It was truly an extremly dynamic and "live" sounding DAC. It made most other DACs sound like dead byrds. BUT it also turned violins into synthezisers.

I dont know the ddac very well, but I dont think that it has nothing to do with OS/NOS.
It is more a matter of resolution and dac typology.

I can tell you that the NOS1 did not turn the Violins into synthesizers.
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« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2009, 11:26:07 pm »

Hi pedal,

Quote
LMC has a ESS Sabre based DAC, and he has reported that he is very happy with the sound. I doubt he would say so if it made violins into flutes!

Not that you should take my expression on this with some grains of salt, but ...

But of course it is not so that any violin suddenly sounds like a flute. This is under certain conditions only, and you can well say that these conditions are the more difficult ones. I cannot explain these conditions, but can only refer to the ways a violin can be played, and hope you know what I mean. Just (try to) compare more or less resin on the stick (the horse hair), and the more resin is there, the more harmonics will be created. Why ? the stick (micro) stutters on the string. This might be a typicle example the violin may start to sound like a synth. When few resin is there, few stutters are there, and the viloin will sound more like a flute.

Neither is true in practice of course, but since a DAC may be profound in either way, the DAC may make it sound like that. The NOS DAC will impeed for the synth more, and the heavy OS DAC will impeed more for the flute.

All is exlained by my earlier pictures. The heacy OS DAC making a pure sine of pure squares, while the NOS DAC pertains the squares.

The latter is always the reality BUT, it now depends for 100% on how the DAC further deals with that;
I think I said it before, but the NOS DAC will repeat a square infinitly into the spectrum, meaning right over the Nyquist frequency, that causing aliasing NQ being the mirror, which is 22050 for 44100 sample frequency. So the squares bump back into the audible spectrum when nothing is done about it.

A lot more can be said about this (and some I talked about earlier in this topic), but the main point is and remains :
Harmonics are the results of square(ish) sounds, and they are as square as their origin, though lower in amplitude. When the original sound is turned into sines, the harmonics disappear, because a sine just does not have harmonics. Thus, a sound which is that sound because of harmonics, becomes a flute. A flute, because it just has no harmonics.


In between the above lines much more is to say and explain, but I think you get the grasp of it : a heavy oversampling DAC is just NOT ABLE to produce harmonics, if you only believe my earlier pictures. And they are not faked.
A violin is a "crackling" instrument, similar to a trumpet on that matter. That crackling is squares. Remove them, and both the trumpet and the violin start to sound like flutes.

I did not want my own ESS Sabre (Buffalo) to sound bad or anything, and the measuring I did afterwards. But it is just a fact that
a. inrtuments cannot be discerned for their origin, especially not in a larger orchestra;
b. how can they, if the harmonics creating them have been removed;
c. you need the reference to recognize it.

As I said earlier, maybe more in between the lines : nobody was complaining in advance of listening to the NOS1. I was there, they did not. That something was lacking (as described) is another matter (well, I think). But as soon as the reference was there, the ESS became, well, unlistenable. Not because I said so. Also, each and every time I noticed the nodding within two seconds after the start of a track, I mean it.

Lastly, to be serious on your remark an NOS DAC making a synth of a violin .. it should. It should just because of theories I briefly explained, and which IMO are not too difficult to understand. However, this is only about the part of aliasing (because of filterless) and that aliasing for 100% sure (because I know by meassuring) is only at very few places at an SPL that equals the listening level. So, this is 5 or 6 (by heard) sheer "points" in the audible band. Although this looks very wrong, in fact this is only about a few spikes like a speaker may (no, will !) let emerge here and there.

I put it my task to
a. measure properly;
c. interpret that towards how bad it is for actually hearing.

So far for me this is difficult, because I am not experienced on this, but on the other hand, actually nobody is, because official AES17 measurement measures the wrong things. Says who ? me. This is about THD+N of 0.0001% while a square became a sine.
I like to turn that into more truthful and meaningful figures. Just because it is as much audible as my theories tell.

Lastly, and I hope I am allowed to emphasize it this time, this time only music was compared which should just matter not all that much about OS/NOS. We did not compare trumpets, no cymbals, no sibilance reed instruments, no synthesizers, no high timbre male voices.
And *there* NOS really makes the difference.
Besides this, and this really matters too, we compared SPDIF only just to be honest in comparisons. I2S is just from another leage really ...
(but the ESS Sabre can theoretically do that too)

So far,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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