XXHighEnd - The Ultra HighEnd Audio Player
June 24, 2024, 07:43:11 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: August 6, 2017 : Phasure Webshop open ! Go to the Shop
Search current board structure only !!  
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30  All
  Print  
Author Topic: World's first NOS 24/384 filterless DAC  (Read 584778 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
leifchristensen
Audio Loudspeaker
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 137

only the simplest can accommodate the most complex


View Profile Email
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2009, 09:01:46 pm »

ok then that´s just a nice days drive in the countryside Wink
and since you have a speaker close to what I planned building it could be fun
hmmmmm
best
Leif
Logged

ASUS P5K-E/Intelquad6600/8gbkingston6400ram/SUPERTALENT ULTRA SSD 64GB systemdisk+4x500wdmusicdiscs/vista ultimate64bit/XXplayer ver.0.9z-2/AP QUAD q4(15/15/0/0)/player priolow/threadpriorealtime+4x,John Kenny modified/batterypowered clocks HiFace,  Twisted Pear Buffalo II reference dac and Avantgarde Trio custom  active basstowers (4xBD-15channel)powered by dual BD-30 amps,eq´ed by Rod Elliot P-84 and passively crossed over@130hZ with custom 24db/oct. passive line lvlv filter by Phil Marchand  and diy cost no object 6c45-IT-300Bamps(Borderpatrol based)+ a SOLID phono setup
Telstar
Audio Addict
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 732


View Profile
« Reply #121 on: February 18, 2009, 12:03:04 am »

Please note the difference with something like equalizing. I am not in favour of that, and will "allow" it by the grace of the means to apply it (because : any filter can be applied, as explained before). So the only thing which I like about it is that it can be applied without loosing on SQ just because of applying it (mind you, like decoding FLAC is audible when done in real time).

Peter

Equalization or "phase delay" as DRC do are needed in some rooms like mine. I do understand why you do NOT need equalization in your room, but in most other cases it will help. Those 16db (or 13?) you added to the HF could have been done with a digital filter. Think of that if you DIDN'T have a crossover. Happy

I'm not sure how you are planning to apply the filters, are we still talking of not touching the (thousands of) music files, right? Happy
What do you mean by not being real-time? Do you mean some preload in memory or a way to hardcode in the program?

Anyway, our goal is the best SQ, so I'm pretty sure that you will find the proper way.
Logged

(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |

Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless |  8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
PeterSt
Administrator
High Grade Audiophile
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16837



View Profile Email
« Reply #122 on: February 18, 2009, 07:47:47 am »

Quote
Those 16db (or 13?) you added to the HF could have been done with a digital filter. Think of that if you DIDN'T have a crossover

You are definitely right Telstar. But somehow I don't feel it like that. This is part of the speaker and an explicit part of the xover in there. This is mechanical stuff and about resonances and all. It belongs to the speaker.
Of course a digital crossover could do that job (I don't say it is easy, and I don't talk about which is better), but it still should belong to the speaker.

Now we have a problem, because the PC or softwareplayer if you like, does not belong to the speaker, and e.g. the output of my SAT box would not use the xover.
The way pedal does it, is coincidentally a good one. The filter (whavetever) is software wise added as a kind of plugin to the soundcard, and e.g. my SAT box could go through the soundcard just the same, picking up the filter underway.

Add to this all, that when one would apply a filter in a box outside the PC it really should be one with digital input and digital output. And as when done in software or "in" the soundcard, this needs an amplifier per speaker driver. I only want to say, having a box with analogue in and outs but which is digital, is just another DAC (including ADC) and this is the very very last one (being serious about DACS) would want.

Of course I am bringing up all kind of subjects here, but they are all related, and it is not so easy to do it right ir conveniently right.

Quote
I'm not sure how you are planning to apply the filters, are we still talking of not touching the (thousands of) music files, right?

No, this would be DSP (I said that I think). But DSP for another cause and replacing what a DAC otherwise is doing when talking about the filter only (and not about xovers and all).
But regading the last part of your question here, maybe you got confused by a. it not happening in real time, and b. you not needing to convert all of your files;

With real time I mean per window part which would be the smallest part needed when filters are applied (they need to read ahead to see what will happen in order to apply the filter, and that can be named a window).
With "not real time" I mean the stage of preconverting the file which XXHighEnd is just doing before handing the file to XXEngine3 (or to itself for Engine#1 and #2).

So your precious physical files remain untouched, but a copy of them will contain the filter. Keep in mind, this would be the "everything is possible" part, because it just needs an existing converter (SOX could be one) that allows for batch processing;
The "not everything is possible part" would work in interal memory, which is always available as an option because the file is present there too (the memory player is in luck this time Happy).
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

Global Moderator
AUDIODIDAKT
Audio Addict
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 727

There's Nothing So Dated As Yesterdays Future


View Profile Email
« Reply #123 on: May 27, 2009, 11:38:28 pm »

Silence Before The Storm,

Must be a Hell of a Post coming up!
 too much ! too much !

Does it work for you ? Peter
Logged

(Sept 30, 2010)                                                
W7 Ultimate x64 Tweaked/60 GB SSD OCZ Vertex (1.50)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-EXTREME/Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz/OZC Reaper 2x2GB/
Esi Juli@ soundcard (KS)(x2v-v0_978)(Tweaked Coaxial)/Nvidea Geforce 9800 GTX+/750 Watt Zalman ZM-750-HP/100 MB Fiber-Optical Internet/
(XXHighEnd 0.9z-2)
#4Engine, Special Mode, 48 samples, SFS 12MB, DAP, Scheme=3, Q1=1, Q2/Q3/Q4/Q5=30,30,0,0, PlayerPrio=Low, ThreadPrio=Realtime
x-Allow Format Change, x-Stop Services, x-Copy to XX-drive by Standard, x-Start Engine3 During Conversion
PeterSt
Administrator
High Grade Audiophile
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16837



View Profile Email
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2009, 12:07:54 am »

I have been typing for quite an hour tonight allright. But I could not finish it.
By now typing starts to be too difficult. Party
Happy

Later ...
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

Global Moderator
Telstar
Audio Addict
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 732


View Profile
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2009, 12:34:31 am »

I have been typing for quite an hour tonight allright. But I could not finish it.

and???
Logged

(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |

Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless |  8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
Ava12
Audio Loudspeaker
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 75

Headphone Audiophile


View Profile Email
« Reply #126 on: June 06, 2009, 11:20:56 pm »

Anxiously awaiting news from Mr P. bored
There must be some secret which is hiding...
Logged

PlexWriter Premium 2 (FireWire enclosure) -> Fujitsu Siemens AMILO M3438, Win7 32Bit, XX [Engine#4 double, Threadprio = high / Playerprio = below normal / V = -33 / Q1 = 6 / Scheme2] -> M-Audio ProFire 610 [buffer 64, bypassed volume control]  -> balanced β22 headphone power amplifier -> Sennheiser HD650  / Grado RS1i
PeterSt
Administrator
High Grade Audiophile
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16837



View Profile Email
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2009, 10:14:48 am »

Ava, LOLOLOLOLOL ... I don't know whether you got that smiley application from somewhere else or whether you made it up, but I so far never saw it anywhere (but maybe I'm not hanging around all that much elsewhere).

So simple ...
Don't look strange if we are going to see that more in here !

Anyway, I got up this morning just to write some piece at last ...
So I will be doing that right now. It will be one of my longer posts I'm afraid ... swoon
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

Global Moderator
Gerard
Audio Addict
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1077


WWG1WGA


View Profile
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2009, 11:09:00 am »

Ava, LOLOLOLOLOL ... I don't know whether you got that smiley application from somewhere else or whether you made it up, but I so far never saw it anywhere (but maybe I'm not hanging around all that much elsewhere).

So simple ...
Don't look strange if we are going to see that more in here !

Anyway, I got up this morning just to write some piece at last ...
So I will be doing that right now. It will be one of my longer posts I'm afraid ... swoon

Hope it's positief....  Happy love this sounds good !
Logged

Januari 2017 XX 2.05
OriginAE x11v Home build HTCP ~ Asus x79 mobo 3930K 12 core underclock 500 MHz,
16GB, *Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0* *from RAM*, music on music server / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.10*  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core *3-5* / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive *none* (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Not the best (OS from RAM issue) / Time Stability = Off (OS from RAM issue) / Custom Filter Mid 705600 / -> USB3 (Silverstone both sides isolated = Sw#3 of NOS1a = Up) -> *Clairixa USB 15cm* -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 0.70m -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink ->> Metrum Amps ->> Metrum Acoustics ESL Open Baffle.
Ava12
Audio Loudspeaker
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 75

Headphone Audiophile


View Profile Email
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2009, 12:14:55 pm »

Please don't chivvy yourself.
We all know that that kind of work takes time, time we all want you to invest.
We're just anxiously waiting for things you might come up with.
And if I may say that, there are very few things that are not worth waiting for that you allways come up with!

So DON'T chivvy yourself!

Oh and news about something like the PNOS1 is allways interesting to follow!

Greetz Ava

PS: this running from that "secret" smiley is an official "add". You can see it when you're writing something. There's a moving "M" with an arrow. You just have to mark the things you want to let move, and click it. There you go^^
Logged

PlexWriter Premium 2 (FireWire enclosure) -> Fujitsu Siemens AMILO M3438, Win7 32Bit, XX [Engine#4 double, Threadprio = high / Playerprio = below normal / V = -33 / Q1 = 6 / Scheme2] -> M-Audio ProFire 610 [buffer 64, bypassed volume control]  -> balanced β22 headphone power amplifier -> Sennheiser HD650  / Grado RS1i
PeterSt
Administrator
High Grade Audiophile
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16837



View Profile Email
« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2009, 10:55:56 pm »

Well, it's been a long time since anything really was heard from me, but that actually meant much much time has been spent on it, and from one improvement over the other, any story would have been obsolete before it got posted.
This one too will be obsolete within two weeks, but I didn't want to keep you wait longer, and the phase things are in now is a separate phase anyway (not that the phase itself can be described ... it's juat a "quality" phase, independent from the other stuff).

First, roughly what has been going on lately ...

As some will know I bought the analyser equipment (5 months ago), which I bought for software measuring purposes. However, at that time I felt some better justification for buying at designing and building this DAC, but since the DAC was a kind of coincidence (although planned for some years), I didn't actually use the analyser at that time. That is, not for *creating* the DAC. It was already there in its stage you have seen from the earlier posts in this topic.

In the mean time (and along the way of listening to the DAC, finding its best settings, etc.) the analyser did not bring me what I was hoping for, and urged by the wanting to know what actually happens when software makes things sound different (you know, all being in the "bit perfect domain"), around the time of the last XXHighEnd upgrade I started to write my own analysis software. And although that by itself was planned right from the start of XXHighEnd, I was encouraged by Jeffc who came up with blu ray ripped CDs vs. normal DVDRom etc. drives, and the first sounding better, all files containing the same bits and bytes.
Although I could make something of that rather quickly, it took an inmense amount of time to get it workable for you (because I like to have it within XX), and right at this moment it is not finished. It is not finished because of the results I obtained from it, told me how bad a DAC actually performs ...

From one thing came the other, and where my own software told me "a" behavior of the DAC, I started to use the analyser to look into things better, and right now I couldn't have made a better investment than buying that apparatus.
So, I did the most obvious when an engineer (which I am actually not) wants to know what is going on and ... started to improve.

In between the lines other developments around the DAC were and are on-going, mostly related to seeing better my own wishes after it was playing, and in close co-working with the engineers who help me with this in the first place. And not to forget : I started this DAC project for my own self but got enthusiast by the so many who wanted to buy it, some in DIY mode, for price reasons or other.

Although it may be hard for you to follow, but at the start of my own analysis software, suddenly all came together. I'll try to sum up a few :

a. The engineer, now having designed a four later board, really found that filtering -if to be there at all- should be in software;
b. My measurement of the "old" DAC showed that things could be better in some theoretical areas;
c. The whole design of the "old" DAC was too large. It looks impressive allright, but it would impeed for a steep price;
d. The general idea growing was : speed. Speed speed speed, which means throw out components (also see a);
e. From the original design I learned that jitter is not *the* aspect it is all about, never mind we like to think so;
f. I found that so many options should be in the DAC (not expressed so far), that the price would go up and up;
g. While the latter may be no problem for many, I really want just everyone to enjoy this DAC.

And thus ... while the new DAC board finished yesterday including some heavy programming by the engineer concerned (oh yes, a DAC runs on software too), I finished my own project on getting the whole into a minimalistic design with enough headroom (price) for all I want to have additionally in there, but which turns out to measure as ... well, an oversampling DAC. Not that this went by itself, because it took hundreds of hours of investigating, trying, testing and listening.
In the mean time I can tell you that theoretically the DAC can be full of switches for different sound (all legitimate, because about all I would have been writing screaming stories if I would have had the time), but right now I'll stick to "one sound", which is the one I finished yesterday.

In between the lines, and for understanding : what I have been doing myself is outside the DAC board, and can be considered the analogue stage. So, what I will be writing about below is about that, and the "old" DAC board. Why not the new one ? well, because that will again need all the trimming, and knowing myself it will take another few weeks before I will be able to report about that. But the fun is : it will be better again (not that I can imagine that at this moment).

Right. So now you understand the environmental conditions the next is about, I must emphasize on the importance of what actually happened, which is why the next step (the new DAC board) will be as important for better sound. In the end I mean : this is not theory only, but it is about measurements proving that what you see for better measurements, sounds better indeed. In fact it is *the most* important, because it was never understood why an NOS DAC could sound better while it measured so much worse.
Of course, I have my own explanations to that, which is about the squares vs. the sines and the destroyment of both (the first by OS the second by NOS). However, the net results could be resoned only, and no science could ever show the absolute right. Now, this will all be obsolete when the NOS DAC measures nearly the same as an OS DAC, right ?

Because I want to be longwinded today, I can add that harmonic distortion theoretically is all over in the NOS DAC, knowing that squares (or squareish sounds) create harmonics, *assuming* that the squares we talk about were sines originally. However, nobody knows, looking at the CD data, when a square which is there, was original or not. No matter when it was a sine, it can be a square in digital only, so whether (e.g.) a synthesizer put out a pure square at 22050Hz, or whether it was a pure sine at 22050Hz, in digital it looks exactly the same : a square. Now, when an analyser puts in a sine, and it detects harmonics (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.), it tells you : no good ! And the higher those harmonics are, the more no good it is. Now, while this is something we have to live with, during the process I found quite some other parameters influencing these "harmonics" ...

Allright, because I really feel longwinded today, and the chance is fair that you start to fall alseep by now, let's look at a picture from another topic in here, which was about me being bothered by the 17.7KHz frequency a modulating pump throws on my mains and which I could capture my microphone through the loudspeakers :



Already earlier I found that adding noise to the electrical system, would make a peak (and its audible sound !!) like this go higher. Hmm ...
Mind you, this is not an analyser fault, and the picture you see is just from a microphone who captured this sound in front of the speaker, visualized by as program that can show it in real time.

With the pure coincidence of this knowledge (noise let rise such anomalies), at working at the analogue stage of the DAC I could see this stupid thing grow higher or go down, the harmonic distortion of the DAC going along with it. From that point on I knew this was caused by noise, or noisy connections if you want.

In the mean time, also coincidence, I received FFT pictures from the engineer from the measurement of the new DAC board, and THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise) which showed such low distortion from the DAC itself, that I got urged to get there too, but now for the whole chain.
Yeah, if you don't know any better, why not be foolish and try it !

Allright, at first I had 60 screenschots to show everything at the various frequencies, but I thought that is really too much, so I'll stick to six for now. All will be better at the definitive version anyway, so more pictures then.

The first of the three pictures below show (all left channel only)
- my old NOS DAC which is considered to be a good one; no oversampling, no filter (orange).
- Phasure NOS1; no oversampling, no filter (red);
- Phasure NOS1; upsampled 4x (which is different from oversampling !), no filter (also red).


10000Hz with low pass filter :





The numbers show the Total Harmonic Distortion relative to the amplitude of the base tone (which is a 10000Hz sine here);
Note that the amplitude of the base tone for official test measurement should be at -60dBFS, but that squeezes the picture vertically and things will be harder to see. Also the amplitudes can't start at -0dBFS because the output voltage of both DACs is not normalized (which would be 2VRMS), hence it is less. For both DACs this does not matter for the figures.

You can clearly see that the "Good" NOS DAC is much more wild at the bottom side. Note that the THD+N(oise) figures don't show an avarage, but in fact the worst peak anywhere occurring relative to the frequency band measured. Because the figures shown only take into account the normal audio band, this will be those first two peaks to the right of the 10000Hz original tone, topping -120dB, the original tone being at -40dB. So, the distortion is at -80dB relative to the original tone.
Note that these are aliasing residues (the mirror being at 22050 Hz), and not harmonics.

If you compare the first picture with the second, you can notice some 10dB of difference between the general noise floors in both pictures.
Of course it is very clear that the first picture looks much worse, and never mind the distortion figure (remember, which is about the peaks), much more harmonic distortion is present in the first picture.

On to the last picture; this shows what happens when the DAC upsamples the original data 4 times (so, from 44.1 to 176.4 in this case), and that this prevents the aliasing, or in other words the distortion at the left side of the Nyquist mirror. However, because aliasing also takes place at the right side of the mirror, there too all the sh*t has vanished.


To get the grasp of another kind of leage, below are the same pictures again (but it were separate takes), but now the distortion figure reflects more than the audio band (in this case, up to 96KHz). Aha, those figures really show different now :


10000Hz no low pass filter :






Now, while keeping in mind that the "Good DAC" really is a good DAC, and not any worst example to, say, proove the NOS1 can do better, you can see that the difference emerges by the upsampling. Ehh, but wait a minute, wasn't the NOS about "non oversampling" ? True, true ...

The whole point is, that oversampling, like any sigma-delta DAC would do (and then I mean times 64 to times 256) is killing the squares, while 4 times upsampling shifts away the Nyquist mirror, removing the distortion in the audible band *and* outside it, the latter being bad for your amplifier, which might not be able to cope with it. And now it comes : where the OS DAC can't do without the heavy oversampling because otherwise it can't operate, the NOS DAC can upsample to any rate we think is necessary if it can do that in the first place. And this is where 24/192 comes in as an important phenomenon, because the Good DAC just can't do that. So, now you also know why I did not show any picture of the Good DAC without all that distortion, because it just can't do the upsampling ... (mind you, some DAC chips can, but they are not 24 bits).

In the end, while this is achieved as a basis feature, you can see (at understanding all a little) that no filter is needed in order to get those nasty fake harmonics down, because they are way shifted out of the audible band, and even up to a region where your amplifier may not be bothered by it anymore (which is above 176.4KHz in this case).

Going further again, we are thus comparing a "nice and easy" DAC (which can do 18/96 in this case) with a crazily more complicated 24/192 DAC for which it is not so easy at all to achieve the same good figures. That is, the DAC chip itself can do it allright, but the analogue stage behind it must be able to do too, just like your amplifier must be able to cope with higher frequencies in order to perceive them right. And it is this where the tweaks were applied ... wrong ... where they *had* to be applied, in order to achieve a same sound quality a good NOS DAC with lower sample rate and bit depth, well, can't to begin with. So, now we are confused ...

The confusement starts by looking at the OS DAC chip, which can reach so called very good THD+N levels, which
a. are true when sines are assumed to get in as the only kind of wave
b. are not true for reality because the analogue stage is needed just the same, but since everything which is squareish in the first place is destroyed within the DAC itself, we will not be able to measure the net results at the end of the analogue stage of the DAC.

Also to keep in mind : any squareish wave requires more speed from the analogue stage because a square is "transient" by nature, while a sine is, well, a nice soft and easy thing.

Now, on to the real merits, what you saw in brief in the pictures above, for both DACs it includes the analogue stage including 2 meters of interlink cable, while for the NOS1 also an analogue volume was included in those measurements (teasing).
For the "Good DAC" this is not sufficient to drive a main amp at that cable length, while for the NOS1 it is. This means that when it were for measurements and figures only, this all looks good (this can't be shown by these few pictures only, but trust me for now that the other 60 or so pictures proove that, and keep in mind that it will get better only with the new DAC board).

Last on this subject, and actually the most important, is that where the tweaks by itself were necessary to obtain good measurement results (which I think are important), the reason for the tweaks has been the speed of the analogue section and the means I got there. These means can well be called "illegal" for an engineering point of view, only meaning that no engineer would ever have tried what I did to begin with, and while the job has been tough, together with measurements it got me exactly where I wanted. So, those figures mean much more than only good figures : they tell that a not understood means of arranging an anologue stage with enough drive to directly drive a main amp, just works.

What the pictures can't show is how it sounds.

For me, this is is relative to how it sounded before the tweaking, and well, when you hear this for the first time, you won't believe what you are hearing.

The first thing is, that this is completely fluid. Second is that this is completely quiet (call that blackness). Third is that it is in a fashion of balance and easy only an OS DAC can show. Fourth is that the level of detail is unheard. Let the fifth be that this sucks and sucks and sucks you into the music.

The fourth, the level of detail, is the most interesting, and in the end the most important I think. The point here is, it is not difficult at all to "create" detail, but usually this occurs in the higher frequencies, and most often it appears to be fake (harmonics !) afterwards. Mind you, not always, because when I wrote the story like this the first time (never posted), it was as good IMO, but lacked the overall balance, and in the end the all over smashing cymbals did not allow for background music. The most interesting though, and since I think it was as good, it might well become a switch in the DAC (very easy to setup different "sound" arrangements). However ... the version of which I think is final (the one I am listening to right now) has another feature : unveil details at the lower frequencies just because the smashing higher frequencies are *not* there. Things like background voices never heard before, singing saws, wowing guitars while no guitar ever was there before, and in the end you could say that the quitness allows for hearing this all. Keep in mind though : creating quietness also is easy : just get out all the detail and you are *there* too. But hey ...

You must be warned a bit; for me it is rather easy to hear that once you stuff in your favorite preamp, all detail will be lost. Yes, so super-fine all is now. I mean, there is no way anymore that a preamp could make your sound less harsh. It just isn't harsh to begin with, so everything flattening will destroy the detail. But then the DAC can drive your main amp, and it contains a volume control ... (of a means I'm sure it's not applied so far Happy). And no, this isn't supposed anything like a preamp as you might expect, so don't ask for analogue inputs.

One last thing for now;
There won't be anything left for DIY I think. All is SMD stuff (this is about resistors and all of 2mm wide) but also there won't be much price reason left to want this. Although at this moment I can't tell what prices will be, it will be quite affordable I'm sure. Besides, because everything will be about the most special trimming, grounding, wireing and all, destroying sound instead of bettering is the most likely. Different options for more or less valid sound quality will be in there as far as they don't destroy general SQ to begin with, and filtering options will be by means of (player) software, and uploadable to the DAC in a later stage. This latter is a subject by itself, and will be an option to apply to your choice. Later more about that.

Within the next two weeks I hope to tell more about "the DAC" as a whole, and about how the NOS1 from then on will set a reference for music playback through loudspeakers for once and for all. At least that is where my intentions are.
Right now I am the most satisfied as it is. However, I anticipate on you wanting more.

Peter (who didn't check for typos nor inconsistencies because of changing this little story a couple of times, and which really took him a whole day to write this, and of which he hopes it is a little informative afterall)
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

Global Moderator
Ava12
Audio Loudspeaker
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 75

Headphone Audiophile


View Profile Email
« Reply #131 on: June 07, 2009, 11:41:02 pm »

Ok first reply this night, more tomorrow.

"...little informative..." ... you're kidding me right!?

 Good job ! still have to this over sleeping .

Still impresses me, which endless stories you can write, which strangely won't make me stop reading, although(and thank God) they're greatly detailed!

Greetz Ava
Logged

PlexWriter Premium 2 (FireWire enclosure) -> Fujitsu Siemens AMILO M3438, Win7 32Bit, XX [Engine#4 double, Threadprio = high / Playerprio = below normal / V = -33 / Q1 = 6 / Scheme2] -> M-Audio ProFire 610 [buffer 64, bypassed volume control]  -> balanced β22 headphone power amplifier -> Sennheiser HD650  / Grado RS1i
manisandher
Crazy Audiophile
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112

from-first-principles.com


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2009, 12:45:07 am »

Thanks Peter. This is facinating stuff!

... filtering options will be by means of (player) software, and uploadable to the DAC in a later stage.

So, my understanding is that XXHE and the hardware will work together seamlessly. But will the DAC be able to work with other software players and/or digital inputs?

Mani.
Logged

Main System:
Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System:
Phasure Stealth II -> Lush^2 -> RME ADI-2 Pro FS R -> Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Marvel horn speakers
manisandher
Crazy Audiophile
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112

from-first-principles.com


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2009, 10:24:41 am »

The point here is, it is not difficult at all to "create" detail, but usually this occurs in the higher frequencies, and most often it appears to be fake (harmonics !) afterwards.

This sounds a bit like the Q1=-4 setting at the moment!

... where the [delta-sigma] OS DAC can't do without the heavy oversampling because otherwise it can't operate, the NOS DAC can upsample to any rate we think is necessary if it can do that in the first place. And this is where 24/192 comes in as an important phenomenon, because the Good DAC just can't do that. So, now you also know why I did not show any picture of the Good DAC without all that distortion, because it just can't do the upsampling ... (mind you, some DAC chips can, but they are not 24 bits).


Peter, I would have loved to have seen the following included in your analysis:

1)  a delt-sigma "24"/192 DAC
2) a true 24/192 Multibit DAC... with oversampling switched in but without upsampling

My (limited) understanding is that there should be no difference between 2) and an upsampled NOS DAC.(If you'd like to borrow my D70, I'm sure we could arrange that. Is this a true 24 bit DAC?)

Mani.
Logged

Main System:
Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System:
Phasure Stealth II -> Lush^2 -> RME ADI-2 Pro FS R -> Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Marvel horn speakers
Ava12
Audio Loudspeaker
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 75

Headphone Audiophile


View Profile Email
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2009, 11:27:38 am »

Well if it's all SMD and it will be quite affordable, then  dancing less work, more time to listen^^.

I'll be happily waiting for more news.

Ava
Logged

PlexWriter Premium 2 (FireWire enclosure) -> Fujitsu Siemens AMILO M3438, Win7 32Bit, XX [Engine#4 double, Threadprio = high / Playerprio = below normal / V = -33 / Q1 = 6 / Scheme2] -> M-Audio ProFire 610 [buffer 64, bypassed volume control]  -> balanced β22 headphone power amplifier -> Sennheiser HD650  / Grado RS1i
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 20 queries.